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Slim

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I have been thinking that it would be fun to meet European friends for a ski trip in the Alps. I have visited Austria several times and the Italian Dolomites twice, all in summer, and really enjoyed the scenery, the culture, the alm huts etc.

On the other hand, skiing is so condition dependent, and costs a lot of money, so is it worth it to spend that time and money on a ski trip to the alps, or better of to go to the Western US, and visit the alps in summer?

What are your thoughts on snow quality? What about skiing styles? I know my kids and I enjoy soft snow, moguls and tree runs, not super steep runs or long groomers.

I also know I really struggle to ski in poor visibly, it makes me dizzy and fall, so I tend to stick to narrow tree lined runs or actual tree skiing in those conditions.

No avalanche skills(and wouldn't take my kids even of I get some)

@TonyC, your trip report was what got me thinking more about this.


Admin, I don't see the way to mark the region, could you do so for me? Thank you
 
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karlo

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I also know I really struggle to ski in poor visibly, it makes me dizzy and fall, so I tend to stick to narrow tree lined runs or actual tree skiing in those conditions.

Skiing in the alps is mainly, wait for it, in the alpine. Little sanctuary from poor visibility.

But, have you skied in the West? Was it just the skiing that you and the family liked? Or, was it the whole experience?

For lower cost, yet retention of the experience, maybe Spain? Croatia?
 
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Skiing in the alps is mainly, wait for it, in the alpine. Little sanctuary from poor visibility.
Exactly, that was what I am worried about. I know the two ski trips to France (Les Menuires and Les Deus Alpes) I took years ago, it was all treeless , but I believe there are some French areas with a bit more tree cover. Mostly people choose Austria for smaller, more tree lined runs, but of course that's on the lower slopes, which increases the risk of poor snow conditions.

But, have you skied in the West? Was it just the skiing that you and the family liked? Or, was it the whole experience?

Yes, we have skied Copper, Steamboat and Winter Park, Brighton and Deer Valley. We mostly liked the skiing. Of course the whole experience of being on vacation with friends and family is important too. With little kids, we don't go for the après Ski or Night life, and we don't shop. So yes, for us, it's mostly about the skiing, but would enjoy the rest of the atmosphere in the Alps a lot. We especially like the on mountain huts and the good food (at reasonable prices) served there, as well as the aesthetics of the villages.
 
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Nathanvg

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I am an American who lived in Europe for several years and skied all over so hopefully I can provide some good perspective.

My overall recommendation is: Every skier should ski Europe at least once but skiing is better in N America. Pro/con list for skiing in Alps:
  • PRO: Big vertical drops
  • PRO: Culture/food
  • PRO: Scenery
  • CON: Most ungroomed skiing does not have avalanche control
  • CON: crowds, mobs (no queues), typically 1-2 runs per lift
  • CON: worse snow conditions (compared to Western N America)
Note: Size of Alpine ski areas is hard to describe. If you're like the OP and only ski avalanche controlled areas, the biggest Alpine ski areas are big, similar in size to the big ski areas in N America.
 

Crank

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A very different experience. If you are a powder and trees fanatic then you probably will feel like you should have stayed stateside. Only place I have skied in Europe is Chamonix and we had a great time despite really crappy, crunchy conditions in a low snow year. It looked like there was a lot of tree skiing available with more snow. For off piste we hired a guide.

Of course like almost anywhere it is hit or miss. I saw videos of folks making fresh tracks in 2+ feet of powder just 2 weeks after we were there.
 

Doug Briggs

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I'd return to Europe in a flash, finances permitting. I've trained and raced there as a kid in 1977 and returned recreationally for a couple of two week trips in the mid '90s and a week in Davos in the late '00s. I do ski off piste and have avy training so it was all about the off piste terrain and conditions. We'd hire a guide anytime we went off piste except for the terrain between pistes; we felt we could evaluate the conditions adequately and didn't get into trouble.

The skiing was excellent both on and off piste when I was there. There were some days when we'd encounter sun or wind affected snow, but it was always fun and exciting. Dining on the mountain and in the villages was great. I was in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Italy and France in '77. Italy and France in the '90s. I'd be less enthralled by a piste only trip, but there are aspects of on piste only skiing that can be exciting: area to area skiing (regional passes) like in the Dolomites and Monte Rosa regions. I know they exist elsewhere like in the St. Christoph/St. Anton area. Extended runs can take an hour or two to ski. They have races on some of these like the Parsenn Derby (it used to go all the way to Klosters but stops short of that now) and the Murren Inferno. I include these to illustrate the extent of some ski areas, not to suggest you have to race to ski them. The point being the skiing experience in Europe has many aspects that are hard to come by in N.A.

Having a guide can pay big dividends such as skiing for a day from town to town taking single rides at ski areas and using taxis/buses to make connections. Valle Blanche is a well known off piste run in Cham as is the Pas de Chevre.

A friend did this race a couple years ago. It is a real challenge.

The Parsenn Derby consists of a team race and an individual race. This video shows the team event where one person leaves the start passing through the timing wand and the other racers follow. The others can't pass the first until they are through the first gate, then it is wide open. You can race 4 people, the third to cross the finish is the time for the team. The trick is to draft and pull along your slower members.
 
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Lauren

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For me personally...well worth it...and I'd say everyone I've been with would agree. It's a different experience (not necessarily better or worse than the NA, just different).

Yes, when it's snowing or super cloudy, the light is flat, and it's some of the worst visibility I've skied in. However, if you're a little flexible, you stick to the lower elevation lifts that day, or ski a little and venture into another town to grab a long lunch, walk around and enjoy the culture. One of my favorite things in the Alps is exactly that...you can ski from town to town, no "resorts", no "lodges", just towns. Even if you don't shop, it's nice to wander around and explore a little. And if you're patient on those days of bad weather...the bluebird days are absolutely worth it. Both times I've been, I've been lucky enough to be blessed with fresh snow...so I may have a skewed opinion.

I can easily say that I didn't have a single bad meal in the 10 days spent in Austria this past winter...food was incredible, and very reasonably priced (especially compared to US ski resort prices). Cost-wise, it really wasn't too bad compared to a vacation out west for me, lift tickets and food are cheaper...lodging was more expensive, but if you book early enough, I'm sure you can find more reasonable lodging prices.
 
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Slim

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For me personally...well worth it...and I'd say everyone I've been with would agree. It's a different experience (not necessarily better or worse than the NA, just different).

Yes, when it's snowing or super cloudy, the light is flat, and it's some of the worst visibility I've skied in. However, if you're a little flexible, you stick to the lower elevation lifts that day, or ski a little and venture into another town to grab a long lunch, walk around and enjoy the culture. One of my favorite things in the Alps is exactly that...you can ski from town to town, no "resorts", no "lodges", just towns. Even if you don't shop, it's nice to wander around and explore a little. And if you're patient on those days of bad weather...the bluebird days are absolutely worth it. Both times I've been, I've been lucky enough to be blessed with fresh snow...so I may have a skewed opinion.

I can easily say that I didn't have a single bad meal in the 10 days spent in Austria this past winter...food was incredible, and very reasonably priced (especially compared to US ski resort prices). Cost-wise, it really wasn't too bad compared to a vacation out west for me, lift tickets and food are cheaper...lodging was more expensive, but if you book early enough, I'm sure you can find more reasonable lodging prices.

The last two times I skied in the Alps it was bad conditions, so that might be skewing MY opinion ;-)

I agree that non-skiing activities, both active or cultural are much more likely to be good in the alps than in NA.
Also agree that cost isn't hugely different.

So yes, even in a bad snow year, we would still have a good time on vacation in say, Austria. But, if going for non-skiing activities, I can do those in the summer too, and still spend our February break skiing in NA.
So I guess that's what I am really asking:

Should I give up my big family Rocky Mtn ski trip for a family ski trip to the Alps?
I might be able to get another long weekend trip in the Rockies in, but not another 8 ski-day trip.

How (un)reliable is the snow?
 
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TonyC

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The OP might find this discussion ensuing from last year Austria trip illuminating: http://www.firsttracksonline.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12278&p=76917

That's from Saalbach, which is an area the OP and family would enjoy a lot, at least under the conditions we had. 3 days of spotless blue skies, 90+% piste skiing over a vast area, maybe half below and half above tree line. We were in Austria in the Arlberg for our first week already and booked lodging about a week ahead, knowing that weather forecast. The week after that it rained, which is one of the big risks of low altitude resorts. So at the end of that final week we had 3 days in Ischgl which is nearly all above the tree and rain line. But as in the other Euro thread, Ischgl is appropriate in March but Saalbach most definitely is not.

My tolerance for bad visibility is better than for most people. Nonetheless there are some days in the Alps where it's better to blow off skiing for the day if skiing is severely limited. And there are other borderline days where I skied a partial day, then settled in for a gourmet lunch.

Nonetheless about 2/3 of my days in the Alps have had good visibility by anyone's standards. The Alps seem to be more like Utah and Colorado in terms of sun, not so much chronic overcast like the Northwest, Northeast and much of western Canada in the winter.
How (un)reliable is the snow?
I'll defer to the authority over there, Fraser Wilkin: https://www.weathertoski.co.uk/weather-snow/the-snow-quality-equation/

Now that I see the OP's trip is a spring break, it is imperative to choose an area with lots of of high altitude skiing. Here are Fraser's top 10 recommendations for March/April: https://www.weathertoski.co.uk/top-10s/top-10-late-season-ski-resorts-europe/

While skiing during storms may be tough at these places, flat light visibility issues are much less in spring than winter.
 
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Yes, do it. See doug briggs post. A different experience from NA, in most cases a much larger area and you can often spend the day skiing round a variety of villages in the area. Some places to consider that can give you that multi resort experience - Val D'isere/Tignes (my personal favorite), trois valees, Avoriaz , St Anton, Gressony (Italy) would be top of mind..
 

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Yeah it's worth it but you have to be realistic about expectations. Let's be honest booking a way out and you have a complete crapshoot as to whether you get fresh snow in a given week if you're set on a particular destination. If you've only skied N America you have no idea of the size and scale of connected areas - WB is small beer. Then of course there's off piste which means you invest in guides or have a lot of confidence and savvy in your own risk management. Personally I'd say shoot for March and high altitude areas and be prepared for spring skiing and long days. If you pick up a storm in a week of skiing glorious corn happy days. If the temp drops and you have a day of boilerplate rent some GS skis and get some groomer mileage.
 

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I will give you @Mrs. 53 ’s thoughts being I have very little to compare in my personal experience

She has skied LOTS or the Western US and we skied Andalo Paganella this year. She loved skiing the Dolomites. We are going back in ‘19 to ski the Sellaronda area, so that should say a lot. But we are a bit different, no kids and we like to indulge in good food and good wine.
 
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The OP might find this discussion ensuing from last year Austria trip illuminating: http://www.firsttracksonline.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12278&p=76917

That's from Saalbach, which is an area the OP and family would enjoy a lot, at least under the conditions we had. 3 days of spotless blue skies, 90+% piste skiing over a vast area, maybe half below and half above tree line. We were in Austria in the Arlberg for our first week already and booked lodging about a week ahead, knowing that weather forecast. The week after that it rained, which is one of the big risks of low altitude resorts. So at the end of that final week we had 3 days in Ischgl which is nearly all above the tree and rain line. But as in the other Euro thread, Ischgl is appropriate in March but Saalbach most definitely is not.

Yes, that thread was what got me started thinking.
We spent a week in Saalbach summer of 2015 and it was indeed nice.

My tolerance for bad visibility is better than for most people. Nonetheless there are some days in the Alps where it's better to blow off skiing for the day if skiing is severely limited. And there are other borderline days where I skied a partial day, then settled in for a gourmet lunch.

Nonetheless about 2/3 of my days in the Alps have had good visibility by anyone's standards. The Alps seem to be more like Utah and Colorado in terms of sun, not so much chronic overcast like the Northwest, Northeast and much of western Canada in the winter.

I'll defer to the authority over there, Fraser Wilkin: https://www.weathertoski.co.uk/weather-snow/the-snow-quality-equation/.

For me, it's not that I mind bad visibility, (in fact if it's snowing I'll take that any day!) It's just that I would want to ski in or along trees.

Now that I see the OP's trip is a spring break, it is imperative to choose an area with lots of of high altitude skiing. Here are Fraser's top 10 recommendations for March/April: https://www.weathertoski.co.uk/top-10s/top-10-late-season-ski-resorts-europe/

While skiing during storms may be tough at these places, flat light visibility issues are much less in spring than winter.

Sorry, I shouldn't call it spring break. Thinking mid February(Presidents Day).
 

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I've recommended this book in another thread...and I'll do it again...Where to Ski and Snowboard in 2016..apparently this is the last volume of the book, and this year they're just focusing on Austria. From http://www.wheretoskiandsnowboard.com/ :

The 2016 edition will be the last edition of our comprehensive annual guide Where to Ski and Snowboard – and it is now out of print.
But all is not lost: in late October we will be publishing an all-new book, Where to Ski in Austria, followed next year by books on Italy and France.

Before booking a trip, I definitely ruled places out that weren't "snow-sure"...even if it meant crossing off places I really wanted to go. Which I know there will always be a possibility of less than ideal conditions regardless of where you go, but by doing research on certain areas you can rule out "most likely mediocre" and go to a "most likely decent" location.
 
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Yeah it's worth it but you have to be realistic about expectations. Let's be honest booking a way out and you have a complete crapshoot as to whether you get fresh snow in a given week if you're set on a particular destination.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Same goes for NA. So that's what led me to asking this. Typical alpine snow is higher moisture content than Rockies right? Also lower altitude so when the snow get's old, how bad does it get?


If you've only skied N America you have no idea of the size and scale of connected areas - WB is small beer.

I have skied in Les Trois Vallees, (but only skied one Les-Menuires-Val Thorens) so I agree on the size difference. The ability to 'tour' from area to area is very appealing to me (but probably not to my 8 year old).

Then of course there's off piste which means you invest in guides or have a lot of confidence and savvy in your own risk management.

Guides it would be, but that adds up quickly.

Personally I'd say shoot for March and high altitude areas and be prepared for spring skiing and long days. If you pick up a storm in a week of skiing glorious corn happy days. If the temp drops and you have a day of boilerplate rent some GS skis and get some groomer mileage.

I think our overlap school vacations for us and our Dutch friends would be February.
 
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I will give you @Mrs. 53 ’s thoughts being I have very little to compare in my personal experience

She has skied LOTS or the Western US and we skied Andalo Paganella this year. She loved skiing the Dolomites. We are going back in ‘19 to ski the Sellaronda area, so that should say a lot. But we are a bit different, no kids and we like to indulge in good food and good wine.

Well, my wife and I also like to indulge in good food and wine....
 

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Another open secret is that lots of the big alpine areas are connected or at least on the same pass as below tree line satellites so a whiteout day isn't a total washout. Bruson at Verbier, La Tania in the 3V, Les Houches in the Chamonix Valley, Sonnenkopf in Ski Arlberg.
 

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Did I read that you are going President's Day week? I went skiing in Austria that week about 15 years ago. It's a good time for chances of good conditions even at lower resorts and in the heart of winter if you have to plan way ahead. I had a great time. I've to Europe several times in various seasons, but that was the only time to ski. Ski conditions were good and the cultural experience was even better. I want to go back and will go back, but family connections in the Rockies have pulled me that way in recent years. If your kids are old enough to enjoy and pick up on some of the neat European history and culture that would add even more to the value of the trip. If you use a major city like Zurich as your gateway try to save a day to sightsee there. On my ski trip I got to spend time in Salzburg and it was great:
http://www.dcski.com/articles/446
http://www.dcski.com/articles/view_article.php?article_id=445
 

fatbob

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[QUOTE="Slim, post: 158949, member: ]

I think our overlap school vacations for us and our Dutch friends would be February.[/QUOTE]

In which case I'd say don't bother. School half term weeks are overcrowded, expensive and really not European skiing at its best. Easter far better IMV.
 

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