Ski techs: mounting errors

[Blue Hour]

I’m a ski tech / bike mechanic, and while stuck at home (high risk for Covid-19) I’ve come up with a few tool ideas for ski mounting. I want to know if other shops have the same issues I’ve seen in the shops I’ve worked in, and I would appreciate any input from techs as well as skiers who have had issues with mounts in the past.

From what I’ve seen about 1% of ski mounts end up screwed up in some way. Would you agree, or say error rate is likely higher or lower?

The common issues seem to be sloppy or worn out jigs, errors with paper jig / hand mounting, the tech choosing the wrong pattern or boot size (or mixing up parts from different work orders), dimpled skis (tech not checking screw length vs hole depth), and stripped holes (too much torque used on the screws). Which of these seems most common in your experience, and which do you most want a solution for? Or have I missed any?

Since so many of these issues have to do with jigs, or not having the correct jig, what do you think about getting rid of jigs entirely and automating the drilling step of the mount? If your shop never had to buy a jig again, how much would that be worth – would it be worth spending as much as most shops do on waxing or sharpening machines?

 

[BC.]

I’m at at a shop that I drill a crap load of skis....our jigs are in good shape so jigs never really an issue......The speed of the jig is essential to make my assembly line move product.

My two issues I see:

1. Info on ticket.....(customer not knowing which mounting line they want)(release settings)

2. Spinners on our lower end product /remounts.....and the time it takes to correct it.

 

[Blue Hour]

I’m at at a shop that I drill a crap load of skis....our jigs are in good shape so jigs never really an issue......The speed of the jig is essential to make my assembly line move product.

My two issues I see:

1. Info on ticket.....(customer not knowing which mounting line they want)(release settings)

2. Spinners on our lower end product /remounts.....and the time it takes to correct it.

Ya incomplete or less than perfect work orders are definitely a huge time sink, the phone tag resulting from that is a pain.

Regarding stripped holes, do you use torque limited screwdrivers? We use torque wrenches on everything during bike season, but then they don't tend to come out for skis... My shop has a 5Nm limited driver that I haven't stripped a hole yet with, and whenever I check after with a normal driver the screws feel right. It might be difficult to get ski manufacturers recommended torques, but 5Nm for alpine and 8Nm for tele (with metal in the ski) seems standard-ish. Anyone know better on those torque values?

 

[BC.]

Ya incomplete or less than perfect work orders are definitely a huge time sink, the phone tag resulting from that is a pain.

Regarding stripped holes, do you use torque limited screwdrivers? We use torque wrenches on everything during bike season, but then they don't tend to come out for skis... My shop has a 5Nm limited driver that I haven't stripped a hole yet with, and whenever I check after with a normal driver the screws feel right. It might be difficult to get ski manufacturers recommended torques, but 5Nm for alpine and 8Nm for tele (with metal in the ski) seems standard-ish. Anyone know better on those torque values?

we do...with a light touch on the drill/hand tighten... it’s just with the multiple remounts on some of these park skis that come in....it’s tough to find “good wood”..so to speak. It’s always the last screw....lol.

 

[Philpug]

1. Info on ticket.....(customer not knowing which mounting line they want)(release settings)

 

[oldschoolskier]

I’ll blame human error, a small part is the few techs that don’t care (which the most frustrating for all), some is error (we all have a moment, but take responsibility), the largest is techs that aren’t taught enough (ie being able to do a set up from scratch without a jig) which leads to not seeing when a jig is not engaged properly.

Think of this as a slow but steady creep to turn techs into glorified appliance (jig) users vs true tech who can work without one if needed.

The few that are true techs here I’m sure that drift is frustrating for you as it reflects poorly on the great work that you do.

 

[Blue Hour]

I agree, there's a lot of human error involved, and always more so when it's an inexperienced tech or when we're overworked or rushed. A lot of the errors I see come up in the drilling part of the mount, though, and that's what I'm hoping to address, as well as addressing the cost and jankiness of jigs.

If I was able to provide a machine that automated the drilling part (the tech inputs the binding and BSL, centres the ski in the vise, and the robot drills the pattern), do you see any value in that? The experienced ski tech still needs to torque the screws down correctly, adjust the binding and DIN and sign off on it. What's saved is the cost of jigs, forever, as it's easy enough to program new patterns into the machine, as well as avoiding jig related errors like it moving while drilling or having uneven feet or wobbly bushings.

 

[Philpug]

The old Ski Mechanics Workshop that Carl Ettlinger used to run was amazing. It is a shame that it didn't carry on.

 

[Dakine]

Programming a 3 axis CNC mill to drill mount holes to within .0001" would be pretty straightforward.
Maybe if a factory had 10000 pair of low end skis it would be worth it.
A precision jig can't be beat for accuracy and turnaround.

 

[sparty]

I agree, there's a lot of human error involved, and always more so when it's an inexperienced tech or when we're overworked or rushed. A lot of the errors I see come up in the drilling part of the mount, though, and that's what I'm hoping to address, as well as addressing the cost and jankiness of jigs.

If I was able to provide a machine that automated the drilling part (the tech inputs the binding and BSL, centres the ski in the vise, and the robot drills the pattern), do you see any value in that? The experienced ski tech still needs to torque the screws down correctly, adjust the binding and DIN and sign off on it. What's saved is the cost of jigs, forever, as it's easy enough to program new patterns into the machine, as well as avoiding jig related errors like it moving while drilling or having uneven feet or wobbly bushings.

Given that amount of human error, often magnified by either a lack of give-a-damns or inexperience, I think you'd just switch problems and end up with incorrect BSL entries and incorrect patterns selected (especially for bindings not currently carried by the shop in question). Oh, and skis not centered correctly.

I say this in part because, despite the availability of fully computer-controlled tuning setups, there are still so many ways to get a bad shop tune. The limiting factor is much more the operator than the tool.

 

[motogreg]

Well, this won't be helpful to the thread, but.....I just remounted 2 pairs of skis that 2 different local well-respected shops previously mounted bindings on. Both previous mounts were not only off center, but were also crooked, front and rear, in different directions. I'd say 1% mismount is way, WAY off, more like 20%. I will never have a shop mount bindings after this, I prefer to be in charge of my own fate.

 

[Philpug]

I'd say 1% mismount is way, WAY off, more like 20%. I will never have a shop mount bindings after this, I prefer to be in charge of my own fate.

20% off? That much would not allow the binding to perform a proper left/right release test. That is a jig with a bent leg. Bring skis back to shop and expect a replacement pair.