Ski tech challenge...base bevel knackered on bc ski with fishscales.

[clickflashwhirp]

Details below:

A brand new pair of Fischer S-Bound 98s - with around 3 feet of fishscale. Skis had arrived in need of a "tune". Took a chrome file to the base bevel to set at 1 degree (preference).

*Disclaimer: Tune followed a bad day and some alcohol. Went to bed. Woke up - realised as soon as I came downstairs and looked at the set-up that I'd held the base bevel (plastic Kunzman) the wrong way around. Would like to say that I haven't done it before - would like to say that I won't be doing it again.

The base angle is now significantly over a degree but can't tell what it is exactly, seems to have hit the half of the outer base edge worse that the half closest to the ski. The option of a stone grind isn't there because of the fischscales. Any ideas?

I've pretty much decided to write the skis off but what does a steep base angle mean for a ski such as this? Firewood?

The assistance you guys have given in know how through these threads is massively appreciated by the way. The picture provided just to give a scale of the scale.

Regards,

clickflashwhirp

 

[Jacques]

The photo is too distant to see what you did. I assume you did a "long" bevel. (I can't really understand what you did)
Once the file starts to hit plastic (if it's not to coarse) it won't do much.
Try the skis and you might love them.
The expert at skate and Nordic is @Primoz. You need to hear from him.

It may mean better glide, but less skate power. Again, you need Primoz here.

 

[cantunamunch]

I'll take them!

I'm not sure how or why you used the Kunzmann tool - but, working from your description of the bases, I would say: Not firewood, no - but I hope your climbing doesn't involve a lot of icy sidehilling, because that will be miserable.

If they were my skis I would increase the side bevel and add ~10mm lift to the bindings. I would leave the base bevels as they are and not touch them again. Like, not ever.

The other option is to go ahead and do the grind - just use those Fischer midsection skins for all climbing afterward. I would _not_ pick that option if those were mine.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

It seems like the scales would be way deeper than the amount of base you'd have to remove to restore the bevel.

 

[cantunamunch]

It seems like the scales would be way deeper than the amount of base you'd have to remove to restore the bevel.

They are, but then what you have is left is effectively a "negative" pattern - the scales are mostly going into the ski and not out of it. Negative patterns are OK on loose cohesive snow esp. if the ski is slightly soft for the skier, but they tend to backslide when the snow gets dryer or icier or steeper.

Fischer has, built into the ski, a fancy little pull-through gizmo for attaching skins to the midsection of the bases - effectively OP would be using those for all steep climbs and all dry snow.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Oh, I didn't realize the scales stick out of the base too.

 

[clickflashwhirp]

The photo is too distant to see what you did. I assume you did a "long" bevel. (I can't really understand what you did)
Once the file starts to hit plastic (if it's not to coarse) it won't do much.
Try the skis and you might love them.
The expert at skate and Nordic is @Primoz. You need to hear from him.

It may mean better glide, but less skate power. Again, you need Primoz here.

I'll PM Primoz, thanks. Basically used the base edge tool the wrong way around all along the edges for both skis, there's clealy no way of sugar coating this. If they were for me I would just crack on but they're a "gift" for a relative who doesn't ski much and I'm unsure as to what a steeper base angle will mean for them, particularly as cantunamunch pointed out with icy conditions (which we have).

 

[clickflashwhirp]

I'll take them!

I'm not sure how or why you used the Kunzmann tool - but, working from your description of the bases, I would say: Not firewood, no - but I hope your climbing doesn't involve a lot of icy sidehilling, because that will be miserable.

If they were my skis I would increase the side bevel and add ~10mm lift to the bindings. I would leave the base bevels as they are and not touch them again. Like, not ever.

The other option is to go ahead and do the grind - just use those Fischer midsection skins for all climbing afterward. I would _not_ pick that option if those were mine.

Hmmm, starting to think of options for these skis now, thanks. Any recommendation of what to take the side bevel to - would this offset the base bevel any?

 

[cantunamunch]

Hmmm, starting to think of options for these skis now, thanks. Any recommendation of what to take the side bevel to - would this offset the base bevel any?

2 degree side max - and maybe. For a meadow - skipping skier using hard-sided boots (like me) it would improve usability, sure. Particularly in situations like herringboning up a creekbed or drainage path. Or wedge speed control between trees.

For a skier in soft boots or someone struggling to find their edges, not so much

 

[tch]

The pic is hard to decipher/see. But I'm unclear: what are you using these skis for? I have a pair of these same skis and I've never worried about the "tune". It's never even occurred to me to tune the edges. I use mine to ski untracked in rolling/hilly backcountry -- up and down in New England. For me, the metal edge merely exists to help bite into icy/hardpack when I occasionally find it on the downhill and to strengthen the ski longitudinally. But this is not precision downhill carving.

I suppose if you're planning on using these mostly to telemark downhill at resorts (I know one person who, in fact, does this with these skis), edge tune matters. But in my world and use, the metal edge simply exists to provide some "bite" I might not have otherwise upon occasion, and exact edge angles don't seem all that important.

 

[cantunamunch]

The pic is hard to decipher/see. But I'm unclear: what are you using these skis for? I have a pair of these same skis and I've never worried about the "tune". It's never even occurred to me to tune the edges. I use mine to ski untracked in rolling/hilly backcountry -- up and down in New England. For me, the metal edge merely exists to help bite into icy/hardpack when I occasionally find it on the downhill and to strengthen the ski longitudinally. But this is not precision downhill carving.

I suppose if you're planning on using these mostly to telemark downhill at resorts (I know one person who, in fact, does this with these skis), edge tune matters. But in my world and use, the metal edge simply exists to provide some "bite" I might not have otherwise upon occasion, and exact edge angles don't seem all that important.

You're right - and this is why I wouldn't have touched the base edges in the first place. I think he's gifting the skis.

 

[Primoz]

Sorry guys for "a bit" late reply, but last few days with 4 WC races and whole bunch of travel in first 7 days of January takes some toll
This is not really nordic skiing issue, as on xc skis there's no need to worry about edges So basically this goes under normal alpine stuff (except no stone grinding part). So my suggestion would be as good as anyone's else. Personally I would actually go with @Jacques method (damm, World must be coming to an end if I say that ) and use steel scraper to flatten base, and then just file edge to desired angle. Similar to stone grinding result but relatively easy to do it at home. Results will of course be worse, but these are not high performance skis anyway.
If you have someone who can handle stone grinding machine really well, then stone grinding front and back part of ski is also an option, but this operater needs to be really good one, otherwise you will throw your skis away. Personally I know just one or two guys, who I would trust this sort of job, but they are both on other side of the world, so not much help here.
And then you have third option... just leave it like it is. Unless you ski some hard icy pack, which you most likely don't with this sort of skis, you won't really notice much if base angle is 1 degree or 2 degrees. I would say this skis are going more into powder range of my skis, and for those, I really don't bother much with edge tuning, as everything, and I really mean everything, works in deep soft snow.

 

[Jacques]

Sorry guys for "a bit" late reply, but last few days with 4 WC races and whole bunch of travel in first 7 days of January takes some toll
This is not really nordic skiing issue, as on xc skis there's no need to worry about edges So basically this goes under normal alpine stuff (except no stone grinding part). So my suggestion would be as good as anyone's else. Personally I would actually go with @Jacques method (damm, World must be coming to an end if I say that ) and use steel scraper to flatten base, and then just file edge to desired angle. Similar to stone grinding result but relatively easy to do it at home. Results will of course be worse, but these are not high performance skis anyway.
If you have someone who can handle stone grinding machine really well, then stone grinding front and back part of ski is also an option, but this operater needs to be really good one, otherwise you will throw your skis away. Personally I know just one or two guys, who I would trust this sort of job, but they are both on other side of the world, so not much help here.
And then you have third option... just leave it like it is. Unless you ski some hard icy pack, which you most likely don't with this sort of skis, you won't really notice much if base angle is 1 degree or 2 degrees. I would say this skis are going more into powder range of my skis, and for those, I really don't bother much with edge tuning, as everything, and I really mean everything, works in deep soft snow.

@clickflashwhirp There it is ^ I still think on harder packed trails that glide may be a bit better with a bit more base bevel being sure there is no railing of the edges. Lifting them ever so slightly a bit more off the surface when running flat.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Last year I came across some older heavily rusted fischer bc's for free. By the time I got the rust off the base edge was more than well filed. They're fine in normal conditions and although my ankles were tired I made it down 1000 feet of intermediate alpine hardpack without falling, and I have never tele skied in my life. So, they're probably fine.

 

[clickflashwhirp]

Last year I came across some older heavily rusted fischer bc's for free. By the time I got the rust off the base edge was more than well filed. They're fine in normal conditions and although my ankles were tired I made it down 1000 feet of intermediate alpine hardpack without falling, and I have never tele skied in my life. So, they're probably fine.

If they hadn't have been for someone else I would have cracked on with it, it's started me off reading up on base bevel angles and quite a few people have said similar so I appreciate the comment.