Ski Slope Security – A new method to help define the level of difficulty

[Monique]

@Kneale Brownson , I dumped out of Callie's today and stood dumb founded at the number of skiers on Spruce. The twigs on the right seemed much safer.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

I still think daily grooming of Spruce is a mistake.

 

[Monique]

I still think daily grooming of Spruce is a mistake.

Interesting. It sure was icy and loud, with people moving at a wide variety of speeds and ability levels. An ungroomed Spruce would be lovely, but then what would the intermediates try as their first black? Think of the intermediates!

Seriously, I love this idea. Dump out of High A or Callie's and you're still on natural snow ... or would it still be blown?

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Snowmaking is over for this season

 

[Monique]

Snowmaking is over for this season

But do they blow snow for runs they never groom?

I heard, no idea how accurate, they were purposely grooming it ugly to keep anyone from wanting to poach it early season. It sure did look hairball.

 

[Guy in Shorts]

Tried unsuccessfully to climb my buddies driveway that has a 26% pitch. Just a blue square for skiing but a double black for my truck. The uncontrolled side back down with a 180 turn that got me turned around was pure winter driving skill.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

But do they blow snow for runs they never groom?

I heard, no idea how accurate, they were purposely grooming it ugly to keep anyone from wanting to poach it early season. It sure did look hairball.

They blow snow in piles and then groom it out, so, no, they do not make snow on runs they do not groom, with the possible exception of Mach 1, where they make snow for the bumps contest.

Haven't been on the Colorado chair in weeks, so haven't seen what's been happening. Usually, they make a ton of snow mostly along the north side and then winch groom it side to side the first grooming. That can look strange.

 

[Monique]

They blow snow in piles and then groom it out, so, no, they do not make snow on runs they do not groom, with the possible exception of Mach 1, where they make snow for the bumps contest.

Haven't been on the Colorado chair in weeks, so haven't seen what's been happening. Usually, they make a ton of snow mostly along the north side and then winch groom it side to side the first grooming. That can look strange.

Anyhoo, I like your idea of leaving Spruce ungroomed, but I think just for the visuals if nothing else they'd still blow snow on it. And anyway they're not going to take that suggestions, so I will simply admire it for a neat thing that will never be.

 

[SShore]

Getting off of the Six Shooter and heading skiers right down Meriwether (a blue run usually groomed between the top of Six Shooter and the bottom of Lone Tree) I notices a big hand written sign saying "NO EASY WAY DOWN". Having received two feet of snow in the last three days, that section hadn't been groomed and it had some pretty sporty moguls built up. A train that advanced beginners or lower intermediates could normally handle is not something they would have a very difficult time negotiating. The only problem with the sign was by the time they saw it it was probably too late to do anything about it.

 

[Monique]

it had some pretty sporty moguls built up.

I've never heard moguls described as "sporty." I like it!

 

[SSSdave]

page 18:

The color green to very easy ski slopes with inclination below 15%
...
Ski 1 – Initiation level. The slopes inclination don´t exceed 30°. The ski slope is neve narrow. The height difference is smaller than 800 m.

30 degrees is about 60% grade thus expert steep. Guessing that was supposed to read 30% grade not degrees.

The reason ski runs are dumbed down with just 4 different categories is because the broad target audiences when out skiing at a resort are not likely to be easily able to digest anything more complex at typical bright snow slope distances or foul weather than a small sign with say a green circle, blue square, black diamond, or 2 bd's. All the rest is up to the individual's responsibility to be potentially aware of regardless of how much many personal injury lawyers that love nanny statism must loathe our ski safety legalities. Slope pitch is only a facet of difficulty. That is why resorts have daily grooming reports with current weather forecast conditions customers have the responsibility to read if that matters. Thus the intermediate has no excuse for being annoyed when they come upon an ungroomed slope with moderate moguls because it hasn't been groomed in 3 days.

That noted, is the current dumbed down situation as useful as it might be. Not at all and all of us can probably imagine token improvements. For instance during this era with advanced mapping applications, down at resort bases there might be a wall map near ticket kiosks with a more detailed topographic terrain map showing terrain in colors representing slope pitch. Thus on such a map, one might see the Chipmunk Trail with its name and a green circle at its top, and slopes down the run in 3 shades of varying green to yellow green depending on actual pitch plus a section in the middle of light blue where it is a wee steeper. Or maybe down at a resort base even a 1080p billboard like video wall display with the day's snow report scrolling down plus chair status.

Thus a beginner/novice that is not yet familiar with ski resort slopes might bother to view such a board before exploring a resort in order to be able to assess the range of actual steepness on runs of interest. That would also help legally disconnect the decades old resort practice of fudging trail designations for broader marketing intents. A resort might still label a run as green even though the same type of run at another resort might be blue.

At advanced skier levels there is much less need for help assessing runs because experienced skiers have long figured out difficulties on their own and understand their personal responsibilities for doing so.

 

[ressano]

Steepness, narrowness, obstacles (moguls, lift towers, rocks, trees, etc), light conditions, skier traffic... You'd need a rating system so complex that Einstein himself would give up.

I strongly agree with you!

 

[ressano]

No, it isn't!

I saw it done in Lake Louise (or was it Sunshine?). The trail name remains the same, the color changes daily. Is it really that "difficult" for ski patrol to slap a different color label on the trail sign? I bet not!

That's a lot more useful than yet another static systems of grading without regard to actual difficulty due to different condition.

Hi ! It might be easy to change the color of a sign, it is not so easy to change all the signs along the track, but can you change the ski trail maps in a daily base?

 

[at_nyc]

Hi ! It might be easy to change the color of a sign, it is not so easy to change all the signs along the track,

Signs are only needed at trail intersections, there’s no such thing as “along the track”. Not in North America.

 

[ressano]

page 18:

The color green to very easy ski slopes with inclination below 15%
...
Ski 1 – Initiation level. The slopes inclination don´t exceed 30°. The ski slope is neve narrow. The height difference is smaller than 800 m.

30 degrees is about 60% grade thus expert steep. Guessing that was supposed to read 30% grade not degrees.

The reason ski runs are dumbed down with just 4 different categories is because the broad target audiences when out skiing at a resort are not likely to be easily able to digest anything more complex at typical bright snow slope distances or foul weather than a small sign with say a green circle, blue square, black diamond, or 2 bd's. All the rest is up to the individual's responsibility to be potentially aware of regardless of how much many personal injury lawyers that love nanny statism must loathe our ski safety legalities. Slope pitch is only a facet of difficulty. That is why resorts have daily grooming reports with current weather forecast conditions customers have the responsibility to read if that matters. Thus the intermediate has no excuse for being annoyed when they come upon an ungroomed slope with moderate moguls because it hasn't been groomed in 3 days.

I agree when you say that there is a difference between inclination and declive, one measured in degrees the other measured in percentage. One is calculated by dividing the height of the triangle by the base of the triangle, the other is calculated by dividing the height of the triangle by the hypotenuse. The key point presented in the article is to identify the critical points of the ski slope to carry out its evaluation on the field. When we get a chart where the highest inclination / declive points and their GPS coordinates are identified, then we can move to the ski slope and concentrate on evaluating these critical points on the field. It is the most critical / difficult point that will define the level of difficulty of the entire ski slope.
About the colors, they are diferent in USA and Europe. In Europe we have green, blue, red and black, being the green the most easy and black the most dificult.

 

[Monique]

I've seen a lot of people suggest ski slope rating standards.

I've never heard of a single person taking them to ski resorts, or conglomerates, and proposing them as a new standard.

It might be interesting to argue about it on the internet, but literally nobody posting on these boards can do a single thing about it, even if they like the idea.

To people who want to redo the whole system, I say: take it to the ski resorts, not to us. Make a business case. If it's such a good idea, it should be easy for you to make a business case. Competitive advantage for universally defined ratings, etc.

 

[Goose]

I've seen a lot of people suggest ski slope rating standards.

I've never heard of a single person taking them to ski resorts, or conglomerates, and proposing them as a new standard.

It might be interesting to argue about it on the internet, but literally nobody posting on these boards can do a single thing about it, even if they like the idea.

To people who want to redo the whole system, I say: take it to the ski resorts, not to us. Make a business case. If it's such a good idea, it should be easy for you to make a business case. Competitive advantage for universally defined ratings, etc.

well,...one needs the time, money and enough passion to be willing to spend them as well as make the efforts involved in order to truly advocate for change in something.
That said, places like this just might contain those willing or those in better position to then act upon what is being discussed.

I know I for one would like to see some type of more scaled (smaller increments) versions of ratings. In other words a bit les broad and just a bit more fine tuned.

I also (to the displeasure and probably ton of resistance by many) would like to see something a bit more universal from resort to resort as well. I mean of course there would be flaw and couldn't be perfect ever (perhaps ar from it) but something that at least helps minimizes the issues with a black or even double black in one place being a blue in another or same with blues and greens,etc. There could be a better job done with that imo.

 

[Monique]

well,...one needs the time, money and enough passion to be willing to spend them as well as make the efforts involved in order to truly advocate for change in something.
That said, places like this just might contain those willing or those in better position to then act upon what is being discussed.

Well, the last umpteen times I saw it discussed across the now-defunct epicski and now here, no one with power or inclination has posted to say they're working on it. Quite the opposite.

Perhaps the OP on this thread wants to take it on ....

 

[ressano]

Wait, did you guys actually read the paper? Don't you have to log in to read it? I'm curious, but not enough so to sign in anywhere.

Hi Monique You can find the paper on any of this links

https://www.academia.edu/35572561/S...thod_to_help_defining_the_level_of_difficulty

http://hdl.handle.net/10400.26/20084

http://www.universitypublications.net/ajs/0703/pdf/DE7C126.pdf

 

[Goose]

Well, the last umpteen times I saw it discussed across the now-defunct epicski and now here, no one with power or inclination has posted to say they're working on it. Quite the opposite.

Perhaps the OP on this thread wants to take it on ....

I think it would meat great resistance anyway, Firstly people in general are afraid and often reluctant to change even if for the better. that's just human nature.
But from an economic point of view I don't feel resorts would cooperate. What resort is going to easily degrade blacks to blues or double blues to single or blues to greens, whatever without great fight. They all want their image/prestige to be of the highest it can be. I personally think ithat actually can fail to some degree but none the less they want the prestige. The highest, the snowiest, the most challenging, etc,etc. most want to be on top with all that imo.

Heck I can go to place in the east whos most difficult blacks would be barely blue at other places in the east. Never mind the west or Canada or elsewhere. Imo there is something not so right about that.