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Lofcaudio

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They probably didn't do anything, there seems to be some random variation from year to year. I always thought they should rank the Aspen areas collectively, since that is what people think when they go there on vacation.

I'm a huge fan of the Aspen area, but I like the fact that the mountains are ranked separately because they really are very unique from one another and offer different things for different skiers. But I must admit that one of the things I like best about a trip to Aspen is being able to ski multiple resorts on a single trip. I love what three of the mountains have in the way of terrain and even Buttermilk has a lot to like.
 
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x10003q

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Holiday Valley, a long ridge of 500 vertical feet chairs with very little pitch, and Wachusett, a 110 acre day area make the top 20 in the East and Gore Mountain is once again missing. What a joke.
 

BS Slarver

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I had no idea grooming and groomed slopes had such a high priority in surveys or with the crowd here.
However, 6 -12 of fresh overnight over groomed and you can't wipe the smile off my face :D
 

TonyC

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As I mentioned earlier, look at Sun Valley and Aspen. Anyone care to comment (this seems a natural for @TonyC ) on the snow those seasons at each? If it's not snow, I can only think it's their PR people's success at getting their fans to fill in surveys. (Oddly, Whitefish did better this year when I only filled in one, compared to the prior year when I may have done ten:eek:).
Your question only reinforces my view that season-to-season variation in snow conditions have little to do with these survey results. Sun Valley had a stellar season in 2016-17 but an awful season in 2014-15, and it ranked #2 in the survey following both of those but #10 in the survey following an average 2015-16. The Aspen areas moved in different directions year to year, which should also tell you it's random variation.

The typical respondent, even though an avid skier, is probably hitting only a handful of destination resorts over a two year period, Remember, when the survey was on paper they only provided forms for 6 areas. I'm sure I was an outlier making copies and sending in 20+ responses.
I had no idea grooming and groomed slopes had such a high priority in surveys or with the crowd here.
The reality is that snow conditions are not always cooperative. In the worst case scenarios the groomers can be the only pleasant skiing. More often they are the place to warm up, get some runs in before ungroomed terrain becomes more appealing. Groomed runs also can make for faster connections between interesting ungroomed sectors.

Original in bold, my comments below:
  • Silky-smooth corduroy to start: when groomed runs open, I like them to feel cushioned but fast... I want to be able to dig my edge in without too much effort, but not dig in very far. I don't want it to feel slushy, and I also don't want ice. I don't want to feel seams at the points where grooming passes overlap, and I don't want to feel any trace of the bumps that might've been there last night. That's a good definition, fairly easy to create in a prevailing packed powder environment like much of Colorado. Real expertise in grooming is more evident when dealing with chronic melt/freeze conditions and especially after it rains. So this is where areas like Big Bear score points IMHO. I suspect grooming expertise is more of a differentiator in the Northeast.
  • Durability: This is generally out of the area's control. On a 60F day the snow at Big Bear is going to be slop by noon now matter how good a job they did overnight. The runs New2PDX cites negatively have sunny exposure. High skier density will degrade the snow quickly too, and that's inevitable at "urban" ski areas. Regrooming during the day is the only option by the ski area, and I see this mainly late season at Mammoth for reapplication of salt.
  • Variety: I like there to be several choices of groomers, particularly steep groomers. No argument here, but maintaining a balance of groomed vs. ungroomed terrain is important too. The day after a big storm Mammoth has a fairly light touch on grooming. The next day, after the powderhounds have churned the new snow, grooming at Mammoth is more widespread. At some places like Big Bear, moguls have become close to extinct. Nearly everything is groomed, every night.
  • Transparency: I like to know what's groomed. Desirable, but most areas have many specific runs that are groomed all the time. When you have a massive place like Vail with a rotation of grooming, then it's more important to have posted list.
  • Bonus points if a groomed run, when the sun and weather are right, starts generating corn with every skier/rider who goes down. This is always out of the area's control. Too much skier density will chew up the snow before it hits the corn stage. The best groomed corn I get every season is on runs that are roped off for racing during late season at Mammoth. When they drop the ropes at 11AM or so, it's as good as it gets. Otherwise you have to find runs (groomed or otherwise) that get relatively little traffic and thus the snow is still smooth when the timing is right for corn. For lift served corn, following the 360 degree exposure off Mt. Bachelor's Summit as the day progresses is the gold standard.
 
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DanoT

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I had no idea grooming and groomed slopes had such a high priority in surveys or with the crowd here.
However, 6 -12 of fresh overnight over groomed and you can't wipe the smile off my face :D

Since the majority of the skiing public are intermediates, I am not surprised in the least that grooming has a high priority among survey respondents.

As far as the Pugski crowd liking groomers, this is more of a resort oriented forum compared to say TGR. Besides, a lot of powder hounds who only ski on powder days only think that they are hard core, but really hard core skiers are out there every day they can and don't just rely on powder to satisfy their skiing addiction.
 

Bigtinnie

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As I mentioned earlier, look at Sun Valley and Aspen. Anyone care to comment (this seems a natural for @TonyC ) on the snow those seasons at each? If it's not snow, I can only think it's their PR people's success at getting their fans to fill in surveys. (Oddly, Whitefish did better this year when I only filled in one, compared to the prior year when I may have done ten:eek:).

You filling in 10 flys against your wish for a crowd free hill. Unless you gave the Mountain a deliberate negative rating.......
 

at_nyc

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I'm a huge fan of the Aspen area, but I like the fact that the mountains are ranked separately because they really are very unique from one another and offer different things for different skiers. But I must admit that one of the things I like best about a trip to Aspen is being able to ski multiple resorts on a single trip. I love what three of the mountains have in the way of terrain and even Buttermilk has a lot to like.
It's like rating Stowe separate from Spruce! Or even more absurdly, ranking Sugarbush separate from Mt Ellen!

It's the same lift ticket. And most people stay for more than one day and visit each on different days. So what do you think a visitor would do? They don't visit Aspen Mountain but spend all their days in Snowmass because the ranking has dropped?

Not that I care. After a few years, I came to the conclusion what I like and what Ski magazine readers like have very little in common. So I stopped paying attention to that ranking (until it shows up on discussion threads in epic or here, I enjoy the light-hearted banter each year)
 

Lofcaudio

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The typical respondent, even though an avid skier, is probably hitting only a handful of destination resorts over a two year period, Remember, when the survey was on paper they only provided forms for 6 areas. I'm sure I was an outlier making copies and sending in 20+ responses.

The online survey now allows for you to answer a series of questions for up to 5 resorts. It specifically asks that you only complete it for areas that you have been to in the last two seasons.
 

Lofcaudio

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It's the same lift ticket. And most people stay for more than one day and visit each on different days. So what do you think a visitor would do? They don't visit Aspen Mountain but spend all their days in Snowmass because the ranking has dropped?

I've found that there a great many people who have been to Snowmass, but have never skied at any of the other Aspen spots. I have even been given funny looks when I suggested that they should check out Aspen Highlands next time they are at Snowmass.
 

Bill Miles

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Groomers are great!
Some hills are way better than others for them. Preferably, big vertical, consistent pitch and no flats. Copper's groomers are some of my favorite!
Quality of a groomer run is more dependent on coverage, exposure and location in my book.

You would love Sun Valley. For example, on the Warm Springs side, there are usually a choice of several groomed routes top to bottom on a 3142' vertical with a 10-11 minute ride back up, with minimal lines.
 

BS Slarver

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@DanoT - your point is understood and believe my im not a TGR fan. I would think the majority of skiers are less than intermediate. I personally ski in ALL conditions and ski as many days as my body and work schedule will allow. Do I ski every day operating out of an RV, NO! Perhaps someday.

Being based in the Catskills its very rare to get powder and the grooming can be hit or miss.
Groomers are great but was thinking more of a whole mountain experience would rank higher for a "resort oriented forum " or a skier pole.

Accessing the mountain and the lifts.
Not having to climb uphill to the lesson area, being able to find the rental shop and perhaps lunch for under $50 I would hold in fairly high regard.
 

TonyC

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really hard core skiers are out there every day they can and don't just rely on powder to satisfy their skiing addiction.
If you just rely on powder to satisfy your skiing addiction, you will probably be an unhappy skier 80+% of the time.
The online survey now allows for you to answer a series of questions for up to 5 resorts. It specifically asks that you only complete it for areas that you have been to in the last two seasons.
Yes, and I had typically skied about 20 of the resorts on their survey list during the prior two seasons. That's why I made copies and filled out more surveys. If I were to do it now, there would be 22 North American lift served areas skied in the past two seasons to fill out.
 
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mdf

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I've found that there a great many people who have been to Snowmass, but have never skied at any of the other Aspen spots. I have even been given funny looks when I suggested that they should check out Aspen Highlands next time they are at Snowmass.

I wouldn't have expected that, but when I think about it, it makes sense. It has got to be a pretty hard sell to get a family to leave their ski-in-ski-out setup at Snowmass and get on a bus.
 

Lofcaudio

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Both Aspen (Ajax) and Highlands have reputations for being very difficult mountains. Most people just don't know better. This past spring break, I took my whole family to Aspen and we stayed at a condo in Snowmass Village. While waiting to catch a bus, I bumped into a friend from here in Missouri who was also there with her family on spring break. When I told her that we had spent the day at Aspen Highlands, she said, "Wow...you must be really good. Don't you have to be an expert to ski there?" That wasn't the first time I had a conversation similar to that.

IMO, Aspen Highlands is one of the best kept secrets for being a GREAT family area. The green runs off of the Exhibition lift are outstanding, with the only problem being the last stretch that involves either Jerome or Park Avenue to the bottom. The blue runs (of which there are many) provide all sorts of fun for intermediates. All at a place that is never crowded.
 

TonyC

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IMO, Aspen Highlands is one of the best kept secrets for being a GREAT family area. The green runs off of the Exhibition lift are outstanding, with the only problem being the last stretch that involves either Jerome or Park Avenue to the bottom. The blue runs (of which there are many) provide all sorts of fun for intermediates. All at a place that is never crowded.
Most people don't think of Highlands as a premier intermediate area due to lesser quantity of intermediate runs. But the runs there are very high quality so appealing to many people. I think Taos is similar. These areas are skewed expert by proportion of terrain but the quality of the intermediate runs is excellent.
 

New2

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Durability: This is generally out of the area's control. On a 60F day the snow at Big Bear is going to be slop by noon now matter how good a job they did overnight. The runs New2PDX cites negatively have sunny exposure. High skier density will degrade the snow quickly too, and that's inevitable at "urban" ski areas. Regrooming during the day is the only option by the ski area, and I see this mainly late season at Mammoth for reapplication of salt.
I agree that a good amount can definitely be outside a resort's hands. And some of what they can control involves trade-offs. I think the Wasatch illustrates this pretty well... on a warm sunny day, sun-exposed bowls like Sunshine Bowl at Solitude (East-facing) and Bassanova at Snowbird (Southwest-facing) will start ok and very quickly turn to slop--I've experienced both when they're really unpleasant before noon. But East-facing Peri's Bowl at Brighton starts off as icy hardpack, gets nice as soon as the sun reaches it, and then stays enjoyable well into the afternoon. And those patterns seem to hold across less sun-exposed runs, too... Solitude and Snowbird will start out nice and get sloppy lots of places on warm day; many of Brighton's runs will start out firm-bordering-on-icy but stay nice all the way into night skiing. I'd like to see some of these areas do some experimenting with split-style grooming... groom it to hardpack on skier's right and with a looser groom on skier's left (or vice versa, whatever) and communicate that to visitors to give them better options and allow them to pick the experience they want. I haven't seen any ski areas do this, though.

Tony, I think you've commented in the past about how you carefully avoid Chisolm at Mountain High West--a good plan overall, since it tends to be so busy. But however Mountain High manages that surface, it stays smooth-feeling in most conditions from 9:00 am to 11:00 pm even with all those tons of crazy people jammed onto it all day. Similarly, some of the runs at Mt. Hood Skibowl stay smooth-feeling for long hours and high crowds. I assume that salt is the key.

And I feel no compunction about giving resorts higher scores in grooming even if a good chunk of the apparent grooming quality is due to low crowds or layouts that reduce bottlenecks--I'm sure those factors enhance my enjoyment of groomed runs at some areas (PowMow, Telluride, Cooper Spur)--but it seems to me like that improved experience should factor into scores.

Variety: I like there to be several choices of groomers, particularly steep groomers.
No argument here, but maintaining a balance of groomed vs. ungroomed terrain is important too. The day after a big storm Mammoth has a fairly light touch on grooming. The next day, after the powderhounds have churned the new snow, grooming at Mammoth is more widespread. At some places like Big Bear, moguls have become close to extinct. Nearly everything is groomed, every night.

That totally makes sense intellectually and from a fairness angle. But for me personally, the presence or lack of moguls is pretty much a non-issue (so long as they're not surprise moguls). Do you think that visitors should rate Big Bear lower on the "grooming" metric because they've exiled moguls?

Transparency: I like to know what's groomed. Desirable, but most areas have many specific runs that are groomed all the time. When you have a massive place like Vail with a rotation of grooming, then it's more important to have posted list.

But for a visitor, it's far better to have a reliable way of figuring out each day's groomed runs than having to search out and rely on others' comments. For a real small mom & pop type ski area, I get not posting groomed runs. But for any of the spots that are actually in contention for a spot in Ski Magazine's rankings, come on... posting groomers each day is a miniscule expense, and making that information accurate is a pretty straightforward element of running a decent operation.

Bonus points if a groomed run, when the sun and weather are right, starts generating corn with every skier/rider who goes down. This is always out of the area's control. Too much skier density will chew up the snow before it hits the corn stage. The best groomed corn I get every season is on runs that are roped off for racing during late season at Mammoth. When they drop the ropes at 11AM or so, it's as good as it gets. Otherwise you have to find runs (groomed or otherwise) that get relatively little traffic and thus the snow is still smooth when the timing is right for corn. For lift served corn, following the 360 degree exposure off Mt. Bachelor's Summit as the day progresses is the gold standard.
What you say makes sense, but I don't think that necessarily means it's 100% out of the area's control. I've been a couple spots with "noon groomers" or something like that (runs closed until midday just for the benefit of skiers, not due to a race... Copper and Sun Valley, maybe?). Having many different runs groomed also increases the odds, and helps spread out the crowds. I definitely believe Bachelor's a great spot for this, I just haven't caught the right conditions yet. A location in a region that gets a good amount of sun probably increases the odds too, although that is outside a resort's control.
 

TonyC

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Rating the quality of grooming is primarily the criteria in New2PDX' first bullet point, and I thus give Big Bear top marks. Whether a resort grooms excessively is a different topic IMHO. Maybe mark down some in SKI Magazine's "Challenge" category.

A mountain can't change its altitude/exposure. If it's disproportionately bad, that's a markdown in snow preservation. New2PDX' comments about Brighton's runs "staying nice" were a function of the observed weather there. There's lot of west exposure on Great Western, and it can stay hard all day long on a moderate temperature day following a warmer one. Brighton's base is 700 feet higher than Solitude's or Snowbird's, which may have created an impression to New2PDX. But when it's really warm, the high north facing steeps at Snowbird will be the last refuge in Utah of winter packed powder conditions. Alta has its share of well preserved steeps too, but you may have to traverse a lot of refrozen ugliness to get to most of them.
 

New2

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Heh, I'd forgotten about Great Western... explored over there twice and didn't enjoy it, so I gave up on it and forgot. But plenty of the rest of Brighton is nicely sheltered, and maybe it has just been the luck of the draw that I've had longer-lasting good conditions on warm days at Brighton than at Solitude or the Bird. So, is it also a function of elevation/different weather, my observation that first thing in the morning Brighton's groomers tend to be harder-packed than Solitude or most of Snowbird (exception--there seems to be a wet band between somewhere around the Mid-Gad restaurant and the base of Gad II that often feels like someone just ran a comb over the ice)?
 

StuckonI70

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You would love Sun Valley. For example, on the Warm Springs side, there are usually a choice of several groomed routes top to bottom on a 3142' vertical with a 10-11 minute ride back up, with minimal lines.

Yes, that sounds awesome. If the place could become Powder Valley for a future trip, I'd really dig it.
 

dbostedo

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Yes, that sounds awesome. If the place could become Powder Valley for a future trip, I'd really dig it.

"Powder Valley" would be cool, but powder days are less likely there than a lot of other places, as they have one of the lowest average snow totals of western resorts. Their yearly average is only 220" according to OnTheSnow, and 195" according to @TonyC on bestsnow.net. So you need a little extra luck to get a powder day there if you're just a visitor.
 
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