• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

Muleski

So much better than a pro
Inactive
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Posts
5,243
Location
North of Boston
Even a $50mil payday, yeah me either.

That one, or real close may happen this spring, so a four year deal running through the 2022 season. May not reach quite that high, but for this sport should be a record breaker.

But, yeah, the money is not even in the same hemisphere. Not close. And what money is being paid is really concentrated in relatively few wallets. The very few at the top do very well.....and it tails off fast.

We have skiers who are ranked in the top 50, paying their way, and their equipment contracts are "use our free equipment exclusively and we'll give it to you. No compensation."

Have not seen any hard research in many years, but certainly in this country, the trending was that race results were not selling ski brands. MS may have upended that a bit for Atomic, I imagine.

Tough business.
 

Erik Timmerman

So much better than a pro
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,304
On much lower levels, you had fully comped younger athletes and college athletes who were told to forget the boots if they wanted skis and support.

And not likethe race boots these athletes were getting were not working. They were.

I'm not saying Dodge is revolutionary. Very interesting for sure. Have some experience with them. Great guys.

David and Bill do our ski bum series. A lot of the ski bums are on Dodge now, more and more of them every year. Dave told me that they have no interest in getting junior racers on Dodge boots. Junior racing pretty much is racing. I don't think that you will ever see Dodge in World Cups if they don't start to embrace U16 and 19s. Maybe that's the smart move anyway when you can sell your boots at full retail to Masters racers and racer parents.
 

Primoz

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Nov 8, 2016
Posts
2,483
Location
Slovenia, Europe
First, sorry for super long reply. :)

Some skis are just fast. Allegedly it has a lot to do with that particular piece of ptex holding more wax. The only way to know though is to test on snow. I presume the top speed racers get first pick of these fast skis. Afaik, these skis are kept in rotation from year to year just changing top sheet. Assuming they meet a change in rules. Maybe @Primoz can answer.
There's less and less of this "keeping old skis". On alpine days of "new topsheets" are pretty much over, while on xc they were never there, and people were (and still do) skiing with 5 years old models. You can actually see this on tv. On alpine, they keep skis until design changes, of course if skis are still perfect on bottom (not damaged ptex, enough edges), and even this it's more or less speed only.
What makes ski fast... all together. It's not single thing. Ptex is cut from big roll and some parts are better for cold snow, other for wet and warm snow. And two rolls of ptex are not same, so no option to have exactly same ptex on skis made from different roll. Then it's the way they do ski. It's all still handmade work. This means no exactly same amount of glue, no exactly same laying materials up, no exactly same position in press etc. etc. When you add all this, you see there's no option to reproduce fast pair of skis again.
As far as hierarchy goes, it's normally so that good racers (actually their servicemen) go to company first, picks few pairs out of full batch and test. They keep several pairs and bring rest back. Further down the row you are, less options has your serviceman to pick from. It can still be you are lucky and you get fast pair, but with some companies (Head in particular) you won't keep them, because as soon as Rainer see test results, your serviceman get visit which normally starts like "well you know that ski... I need it back for X racer". So you do all the work, all the waxing, preparation and running it, and then ski is gone. Not fair, but that's life nowadays.
But yes, the only wat to see if ski is fast is to test them on snow. There's no way to say for sure ski will be fast just looking or measuring it. So at least for speed skis, there's lot of testing and skiing it (I actually still do some of this stuff from time to time for friend and his racer, as running 20 new DH pairs take some time for single guy).
For SL and GS skis, it's not so much real testing but more skiing it on course. And if it feels good, and your times are faster then other skis, then ski fits you and is "fast". But that's inaccurate that it's kinda hard to tell ski is really good/fast.

I'll try to respond to more later, but there is a big difference between recognizing a boot problem and correcting a boot problem. It isn't as simple as Internet pontificators say because you are adapting a messy human structure to a rigid exoskeleton.
That's something that always impress me, even though I'm not sure "impress me" is right thing. For boots, I never did much more then fit (basically punch and grind) my own boots, but I'm still impressed with "fitters" who look at client in store, take out their "it has to be this way" tables, and they know how to set their boots. But ok it's also true for recreational skiers with 80 flex boots, probably also number or two too big, there's really not much fitting needed :D

Novice question here
In the day and age of 3D printers and imaging, why can’t they take a molding of a skiers lower leg/foot and design a boot around it with the stiffness/reinforcement exactly where it is needed?
I would say it's simply too expensive for companies to bother.

So, what is Olympic gold worth? Would a different boot on your contracted ski give you a better chance to win Gold? This is a question I would be asking myself.
Thing is exactly like you said. Ski companies hold athletes hostage. It's not you can't say I want just ski and no boots, but thing is, you will either never get such contract signed (they will just drop you), or you might get through with contract, but you will never get top pick at their skis. So it's not like athletes have much of choice... even if they don't like it.

What blows me away are the junior racers who buy, and buy all from one company. Regardless of racer pricing, you can work around it. It's often not the best program at all.
It's about the looks. If Hirscher has everything from Atomic, and Kristoffersen everything from Rossi, then little kid races needs to be same, and he/she has to have everything from one company. It doesn't go other way, even if I'm wondering exactly same as you do. But nowadays look is more important then what's fast :)
 

dj61

Getting on the lift
Skier
Joined
Feb 25, 2017
Posts
223
The only one, probably in history of Atomic, that's using non-Atomic equipment is Hirscher.
Interesting claim. I tried to find some backing on the web but could not find any. I did notice that Hirschers slalom skis appear not have the service rod... Can you help me out with some more info?
 

Primoz

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Nov 8, 2016
Posts
2,483
Location
Slovenia, Europe
@dj61 claim about what? That Hirscher using non-Atomic stuff or that noone else was allowed to use that before? If first, then I guess there should be enough material about this on web, most likely even bunch of discussions on this forum. For second, check for example what Janka and his coach had to say about this, when it came out Hirscher is on Marker bindings painted to look like Atomic.
 

dj61

Getting on the lift
Skier
Joined
Feb 25, 2017
Posts
223
@dj61 claim about what? That Hirscher using non-Atomic stuff or that noone else was allowed to use that before? If first, then I guess there should be enough material about this on web, most likely even bunch of discussions on this forum. For second, check for example what Janka and his coach had to say about this, when it came out Hirscher is on Marker bindings painted to look like Atomic.
The first. I searched this forum with "hirscher + atomic" I googled "Hirscher (not) on atomic". Found nothing usable. But the binding issue is interesting. Thanks.
 

SkiSpeed

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Aug 17, 2017
Posts
156
Location
VT
Hehehe search for "hirscher marker bindings" :) First link https://www.skiracing.com/stories/hirscher-runs-marker-plate-and-binding-in-soelden and then you have quite few photos in image search of Google. But bindings are not only thing, there were (maybe still are) also boots, that were not Atomic, and akhm akhm.... skis that were not Atomic :D

Ok, I'll ask the question that has been plaguing me regarding this situation: why would another ski company, or boots/bindings, let one of the world's most recognizable racers use their product w/out getting the credit?

I have seen the pics for Hirscher and read about Janka's separation from Atomic over the bindings, but skis??? That one is new for me. I would love to know how a ski company, in this case Atomic, can stomach that? Does serious $$$ change hands here? Would Head allow a Rossi/Dyastar or Atomic/Salomon athlete to use their boards knowing that they are in disguise? Since the FIS also lists equipment that the racers use, wouldn't they also have something to say about this; ugh, sorry for bringing FIS into this, but.....
 

RuleMiHa

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Sep 2, 2017
Posts
576
Location
Philadelphia, PA
Ok, I'll ask the question that has been plaguing me regarding this situation: why would another ski company, or boots/bindings, let one of the world's most recognizable racers use their product w/out getting the credit?

I have seen the pics for Hirscher and read about Janka's separation from Atomic over the bindings, but skis??? That one is new for me. I would love to know how a ski company, in this case Atomic, can stomach that? Does serious $$$ change hands here? Would Head allow a Rossi/Dyastar or Atomic/Salomon athlete to use their boards knowing that they are in disguise? Since the FIS also lists equipment that the racers use, wouldn't they also have something to say about this; ugh, sorry for bringing FIS into this, but.....
I would think that the hidden company is thinking if they play their cards right they can sign the athlete when their contract is up and the current branding company wins if the athlete wins if it appears as though their equipment is being used. Am I wrong?

I am more confused by a company insisting on their equipment being used (not just other equipment with a paint job) when the athlete isn't winning on it, or insisting on their newest equipment being used when the athlete isn't winning on it, and was winning on old stuff. Especially when you consider how slim winning margins are and how many factors are involved in athletes getting their equipment just right. Reading something on the process for choosing skis for speed events just blew me away.
 

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,453
Ok, I'll ask the question that has been plaguing me regarding this situation: why would another ski company, or boots/bindings, let one of the world's most recognizable racers use their product w/out getting the credit?
Because they have no contract. Sure, they could advertise that Hirscher is using their bindings. But then Atomic is pissed off. So when another situation happens with the reverse.. Now it's a mess. Why not let the TMZ's of the ski world handle it?
 

Muleski

So much better than a pro
Inactive
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Posts
5,243
Location
North of Boston
Don't overthink it. This really involves one company and the best male skier in the sport. Atomic is Austrian. They have always wanted the biggest name in their country on their skis and have paid Hirscher with the biggest contract. They want Hirscher to be seen "on their brand." And he'll cash the checks.

The second piece is how well does the product work for him? And what is the best product for him, to enable his results. The most visible issue were the bindings, and the plates. Let's imagine that he and his team did not like the generation of bindings that Atomic ideally wanted him in, 2014. So his team mounts some Piston Plates, and Marker 30.0's and finds that they are better and faster...on HIS skis. Much so.

Then imagine that the discussion is "this binding and plate sucks. Do you want Marcel to win? Then let us use the Marker set up. We'll alter the colors. When he is seen carrying any product, it will be Atomic"

OK. Sounds OK. Of course the media jumped on the reports, with pictures. So it just sort of "is" now.

Boots? Hirscher has more different boot setups than anybody in the sport by a wide margin. It seems like Atomic created a lot of athlete problems when they rolled out the Redster. I had dinner in Vail this time of year in 2012, and with us were three Atomic skiers. I asked if they were in the new boot. No. I asked if anybody was. The response: "Nobody who's any good!"

At some point, I assume Atomic says "we're paying you. We're trying to sell new boot designs. Let's get to into the new boot." Somebody like Hirscher has huge leverage. Again, Atomic wants him winning. If the impression is that he's in an Atomic boot, It's a win.

Has he been in an Atomic boot? As some of us say, not do much. They are always messing with his boots. He uses a lot of different set ups. He has been in an Atomic, and I think two others. They all look red.

Skis? Whole separate discussion. What if the binding change was because of the skis being built and designed for a Marker set up? But they are Atomic skis? Are they? Who knows?
Again, as long as he wins, he feels like he is on the best skis, and we think they are Atomic, Atomic is pleased. He cashes big checks.
Who knows if all of his skis are made on the same factory?

But he is unique. Very. As is Ms. Schiffrin. And she's not in this program at all. Maybe with boots. And probably all within the Amer Sports family.

The Janka deal was over bindings. Being a speed skier, he likely was not loving the binding they were forcing him to use. Might have been in his head? Whatever. They agreed to release him and he moved to Rossi. I imagine that you can only have so many guys pushing back and insisting on "old." Benni Raich stuck in the old binding, and everybody knew it.

Atomic wants to sell product and push the brand. That means Hirscher winning globes. If he's not confident that he can on their product, paying him a fortune to ski on their stuff, and not win, is not helping the cause. Race results sell a lot of skis in other parts of the globe.

As we have mentioned, there is a serious pecking order in this equipment game. We're taking about ONE guy with six consecutive WC globes. Who is an Austrian on Atomic.

Let's not get into "what he's really on," OK? Doesn't matter. Nonbody else could obtain them, and I'd venture that they would not be a good choice unless your WR is maybe 50 or less. Doesn't matter.
 

RuleMiHa

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Sep 2, 2017
Posts
576
Location
Philadelphia, PA
It seems like Atomic created a lot of athlete problems when they rolled out the Redster. I had dinner in Vail this time of year in 2012, and with us were three Atomic skiers. I asked if they were in the new boot. No. I asked if anybody was. The response: "Nobody who's any good!"
I was wondering what kind of testing is done before a company roles out a radically new race boot. Do they check if it's fast for anybody first, or are they just basing their decisions on what they theoretically think should be good?
 

Muleski

So much better than a pro
Inactive
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Posts
5,243
Location
North of Boston
I'm not sure how radically different some of the changes are when a new generation is designed, prototyped, skied, refined and then put into production. But, sure, a lot goes into it. The tooling/mold costs are huge. So, they want to get it right.

Some really do not mess with success, and stick with a proven thing. As long as they sell in big numbers, that is a big win. Think about how little change in Lange/Rossi. Or Nordica/Tecnica and the Dobermann.

I'm guessing that the Atomic Redster had a ton of design work. Driven to sell the line of boots. Heck, they looked great, and I think they sold like wildfire.

But they are building to sell. Not designing a boot for Hirscher and then trying to sell it.

There is also the consideration that the real WC race room boot guys can seem to make almost anything work well for any athlete. Some exceptions, but these guys can work magic. The guys who have years of experience with say a Lange or Dobie are wizzards.

And, some boots are truly custom made for the athletes. Very few, but some.

Hope that's not confusing.
 

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,453
Let's not forget the Dobermann "new design" and how eventually they went back to the old one. Then the EDT boot board- made of aluminum. If race boots weren't cold enough... The idea of screwing the boot board to the shell was probably good, I think it was based on research. But aluminum?

Back during the Tahoe gathering- 2011,12? I took a run with quite a well known industry reviewer whose been around for some time. When we got to boots, I asked him about Nordica. "They seem to have swallowed a whole bottle of stupid pills," was his reply.

They do seem to have recovered since then.
 

Muleski

So much better than a pro
Inactive
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Posts
5,243
Location
North of Boston
Let's also realize that almost none of the world's best Nordica skiers EVER skied in that EDT boot. May have looked like it. My son has a pair that were cosmetically correct. Plus which looked like bolts. No actual EDT. Got them via a WC connection.

The EDT bbot was horrible. The abducted stance boot, "The Agressor" skier pretty well unless you were racing. Marco Sullivan tried to make it work, TJ Lanning, Fails.

We had many boxes of those boots....and they were not good. Yeah...cold? Jeez. I know a girl who skied them for a few months. Boot heaters as she joked, not to be warm but to slow down frostbite.

What everybody skied in was the original mold, with the shiny black material. They Nordica went back to the matte black forumula, and eventually decided to sell it with both Nordica and Tecnica brands....and they sell many more than they ever did with the other iterations.

I always hear most boot "people" always refer to the Dobie as the grand daddy of all current race boots. Lange must be a great uncle.

Some of the boot companies are a lot better about sell "real" race boots. Fischer and the actual straight last plugs is a good example. They pushed SOMA to lower level {non national team} racers.....and that did not work too well.

Used to be that the race directors could block the sale of any and all race product. And would hold it back.

Then brighter minds entered and asked "Why?"

Many interesting boots in past years. Like the full on carbon Langes. Well hidden until somebody had them over his shoulder atop a very prominent podium. OOPS!! Only about 5-6 guys were in them. And two women.
 

Primoz

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Nov 8, 2016
Posts
2,483
Location
Slovenia, Europe
For Hirscher's skis I'm still not 100% sure it was really Nordica. I got this info quite few times from different people, and those were people I know for most of my life and don't lie to me, even about stuff like that. One of them was even serviceman from guy on Atomic. On the other side it sounds sort of impossible that Nordica would really build ski for main competition of their own top guy. So most likely it's third option, which is more probable, and that's that Atomic got into their hands Nordica ski, sort of reverse engineered it and made skis for Hirscher based on Nordica's ski and not on their regular race ski. No matter what, ski was painted in Atomic colors so basically impossible to tell from photos skis are not Atomic, contrary to bindings and to some extent boots which are relatively easy to spot if they don't fit regular product.
Thing about racers using old product is nothing new. Even for today, I'm not sure if there's many if any racer on Fischer vacum boots, even though Fischer officially doesn't make anything else then Vacum for quite some time already. First 2 or 3 years when they came out with their vacum line, there was not a single racer on them. But graphics on their boots was of course saying Vacum. Most of WC boots come to racers clean without paintjob. Once they are fitted and done, they get stickers on, so it's really just that... a sticker not a regular boot you get in store, even race store. Then another sample, pretty much everyone on tech side are still on old Marker bindings, even if new model is out for some 2+ years. Some say old one is 0.2sec/average run faster. But it doesn't really matter all that much, because as soon as race is in finish, he's handed skis (with bindings) that company wants to sell. Most obvious in that is Fischer, and in my mind the most stupid one too. In my mind, you have to have "racing" model of ski in store. If race is won with Fischer RC4 World cup GS ski, then you need to sell this model in store, even if it has radius of 18m and not 30, not that they sell RC4 World Cup RC ski. People want to buy ski that Nyman is skiing not some different model. But I guess I don't have any idea about marketing :D
 

Sponsor

Staff online

  • Andy Mink
    Everyone loves spring skiing but not in January
Top