Ski Brand Speed....

[Muleski]

Bode's a very interesting example of fitting in unique way that works for him. If you were a 17 year old top racer and walked into a top bootfitters and said, "fit me like this", you and your coach would get strange looks.

Bode skis in as short a BSL as they can make work. So they grind the toebox and heel for length. He uses no footbed. So he gets a bit more room that way. He has a huge punch near his ankle bone {whatever the medical term is} as he wants to be able to roll his ankle/foot. So he's not completely locked in.
But you look at his foot, then at his boot, and
say "No way." Has "worked OK" for him.

When he was in his Ski academy years and in a Tecnica boot, I could not believe what he squeezed into.

And yep, @James, then it was the Doberman, the Rossi {before Rossi was Lange}, Atomic, and Head. And I guess now.....Full Tilt?

A lot of juniors who do not have coaches who eat, live and breathe this are in bad boots.
Constantly hear of the challenges of getting girls into the right plug boot for them, when they really need one for their skiing. Some boot companies nail it for the boots just before that move, and fail it with the small lower flex plugs.

A lot to it........

 

[Started at 53]

Golf and skiing are of course different, but a golfer can do a contract to use as much or as little as they choose in the equipment/bag/ball/hat/clothes combination. Of course compensation is geared to the amount of exposure the combination provides for the equipment company.

I would think that a skier would be able to work a deal in a similar fashion, and IF a boot made them a better skier I can’t imagine that he/she would not pursue that avenue.

The history of professional golf is littered with guys who have switched equipment, be it the ball and/or clubs after a good year and took the money who never played to the same level with that new brand. Many times they switch away from the new stuff when they realize they are not getting the same results.

In golf, it is the ball that is most important in that it has the largest impact on performance, next would be the clubs (I will refrain from breaking down the clubs into parts, but yes clubhead/shafts and combinations of such have a huge impact).

So, a Bode (obviously formerly) and now MS et.al. should be looking at results.

One HUGE difference is that there is so freaking little prize money in skiing, whereas in golf using inferior (for you) equipment really hits the players in their wallets.

 

[Frankly]

Back in my day, 35 years ago, was before the ski companies locked up the boot and binding markets... so you saw more of a meritocracy at work.

Langes, Markers, K2 or Rossis were popular combinations in the USA back then. Mid 70s Tryolias (Head) were not as well regarded. I'm guessing there was more national differences with brands too... Kastles and Fischers were stiff heavy metal beasts versus Dynamic, Rossi, Dynastars, K2s were lively glass and foam....

Correct me if I'm wrong but it was the distrubutors that brought the brands together and that eventually led to the brands consolidating? Other than Salomon, who simply spent a lot to launch a complete skiing system.

 

[Muleski]

Golf and skiing are of course different, but a golfer can do a contract to use as much or as little as they choose in the equipment/bag/ball/hat/clothes combination. Of course compensation is geared to the amount of exposure the combination provides for the equipment company.

I would think that a skier would be able to work a deal in a similar fashion, and IF a boot made them a better skier I can’t imagine that he/she would not pursue that avenue.

The history of professional golf is littered with guys who have switched equipment, be it the ball and/or clubs after a good year and took the money who never played to the same level with that new brand. Many times they switch away from the new stuff when they realize they are not getting the same results.

In golf, it is the ball that is most important in that it has the largest impact on performance, next would be the clubs (I will refrain from breaking down the clubs into parts, but yes clubhead/shafts and combinations of such have a huge impact).

So, a Bode (obviously formerly) and now MS et.al. should be looking at results.

One HUGE difference is that there is so freaking little prize money in skiing, whereas in golf using inferior (for you) equipment really hits the players in their wallets.

It's a good observation. The best contracts go to the best skiers, and the "industry" really is tough on forcing the one brand program. Very tough.

Now if you are way down the list, you might be able to be in a different boot and ski. And of course some skis do not have a boot. Or only recently did. I'm trying to think if anybody on the WC, skiing on Volkl, for example is not in a Dalbello boot. A few years ago...a lot of other boots.

Every Rossi skier is in a Rossi or Lange. Atomic, Blizzard/Tecnica, Nordica, Head, Fischer. Then skis only: Stockli, CROC.

Nobody with enough "swing" has bucked the system. And the best get paid to stay in one place.

What blows me away are the junior racers who buy, and buy all from one company. Regardless of racer pricing, you can work around it. It's often not the best program at all.

I am pretty close to a guy who was exceptional as a junior {and later}. Had a different ski brand for each of the four events. Yet another boot company. Went with the best and fastest skis...for him. Nobody thought it was that odd, as he was fast.

He was buying lightly used WC stock skis, BTW.

 

[James]

Well Bode is a special case for sure. He's like the special race car driver who can read the feedback from the car and make adjustments.
But just because he made it work doesn't mean a different setup might have worked even better. But, belief is king.

It was funny to hear Bode on tv replay about the Killington wcup racers. I wish he'd have taken the advice he was giving- balancing going for it with holding back etc. He also talked about crashing - yeah he's truly an expert on the subject! Oy vey! Bode toning it down just a little he'd probably have 10 more victories, many more podiums.

The problem is kids hear how Bode, or racer x is in boots of 3 shell sizes down or whatever and think that's what they need. They also get told stuff like "no one has ever won a wcup race with a boot over x size" I think x is about 315mm bsl, but I forget. With this conventional race wisdom that 6'7" US speed event racer, Bryce Bennett should be hopeless. I think his foot is absurdly big. 15,16? He should be like a giraffe on ice skates.

 

[Started at 53]

Because skiers do not directly derive the majority of their income from prize money, the ski/boot companies can and obviously do hold them hostage.

To me it is about results, and I would use the best for my results.

So, what is Olympic gold worth? Would a different boot on your contracted ski give you a better chance to win Gold? This is a question I would be asking myself.

Funny side note, I once had a company pay me a lot to NOT wear another companies hat. And just to be fair, I was not that good!!!!

So, another newbie question..... Are Ski/Boot companies more interested in selling skis or boots?

 

[oldschoolskier]

As with any sport that requires equipment, 99.9% of the top equipment is going to perform very similar. What it comes down to to make it shine and place in the top 5-10 consistently is the Athelete and the prep of said equipment.

So good equipment, great consistent prep and a constant athelete will be on top.

* Prep, (setup) applies to all equipment, boots, poles, skis to as simple as poles and goggles.

 

[ScotsSkier]

It's a good observation. ......

I am pretty close to a guy who was exceptional as a junior {and later}. Had a different ski brand for each of the four events. Yet another boot company. Went with the best and fastest skis...for him. Nobody thought it was that odd, as he was fast.

He was buying lightly used WC stock skis, BTW.

Of course! doesn't everyone??
In my case...
Sl - Rossignol
GS - Blizzard
SG - Atomic
Dh - Fischer
Boots - Tecnica (and occasionally Lange)
Bindings - Look/Marker/Atomic/Head
And off course some of these may change over the season....

Although it always amazes me how some of my Masters athletes also go down the route of sticking with one brand for all events...

And @Started at 53 ....I thought it was pretty normal on the tour that a lot of golfers used "rebranded" clubs rather than the Company they were supposedly contracted to. Wasn't Tiger using different clubs despite supposedly being with Nike?

 

[James]

OK, so now I have another thought...

Boot angles would be a lot easier to control/determine if all bindings had the same delta. I find it amazing that there is not an industry standard and then adjust the boot angle accordingly

Well boots are separate from but influenced by delta in bindings. I do agree with you though about standardizing. At least freakin publish- broadly, meaning it's not hidden in some basement in France, the heel and toe heights and the delta. And make shims easily available to change. Shorter bsl's are most affected. Just going down one ahell size can effect things a lot. (1cm bsl)
But hey, you missed the whole Jeannie Thoren era which spawned the idea that every women needs a heel lift and women should have lots of ramp. It was based on women are different so why is everything the same? Well it got a little out of hand. Ski manufacturers, as I recall, started building in delta - to skis! Fortunately we're over that. (She's in the hall of fame btw)

Golf and skiing are of course different, but a golfer can do a contract to use as much or as little as they choose in the equipment/bag/ball/hat/clothes combination. Of course compensation is geared to the amount of exposure the combination provides for the equipment company.

I would think that a skier would be able to work a deal in a similar fashion, and IF a boot made them a better skier I can’t imagine that he/she would not pursue that avenue.

You would think.
"Thinking" and "Ski Industry" are in different universes.
In this instance it's pure this is the way it is. For every racer, FIS lists skis, bindings, boots. I guess everyone wants it to be the same word for all three. Like Head,Head,Head, Rossi,Rossi,Rossi.
I don't know the underlying machinations of this but surely they'd make Machiavelli proud.

 

[RuleMiHa]

oops

 

[RuleMiHa]

Bode's a very interesting example of fitting in unique way that works for him. If you were a 17 year old top racer and walked into a top bootfitters and said, "fit me like this", you and your coach would get strange looks.

Bode skis in as short a BSL as they can make work. So they grind the toebox and heel for length. He uses no footbed. So he gets a bit more room that way. He has a huge punch near his ankle bone {whatever the medical term is} as he wants to be able to roll his ankle/foot. So he's not completely locked in.
But you look at his foot, then at his boot, and
say "No way." Has "worked OK" for him.

When he was in his Ski academy years and in a Tecnica boot, I could not believe what he squeezed into.

And yep, @James, then it was the Doberman, the Rossi {before Rossi was Lange}, Atomic, and Head. And I guess now.....Full Tilt?

A lot of juniors who do not have coaches who eat, live and breathe this are in bad boots.
Constantly hear of the challenges of getting girls into the right plug boot for them, when the really needing for their skiing. Some boot companies nail it for the boots just before that move, and fail it with the small lower flex plugs.

A lot to it........

Interestingly enough there's a company (ZHealth) that has videos that show if you limit joint mobility in just the wrong way you screw up joint proprioception which causes the brain to limit the muscle strength to the area because it reacts to that loss of information the same way we decelerate a car in a blizzard (can't tell where you are or where you're going so you slow down) .

So junior racers see Bode in a super small boot, misunderstand the reasons for maintaining at least minuscule joint mobility, lock themselves up and don't understand why their miracle Bode boot's not working.......

 

[Started at 53]

And @Started at 53 ....I thought it was pretty normal on the tour that a lot of golfers used "rebranded" clubs rather than the Company they were supposedly contracted to. Wasn't Tiger using different clubs despite supposedly being with Nike?

Where is the “cat outta the bag” emoji?
Where is the “I speak no evil” emoji?

The list was long and distinguished.

 

[Muleski]

I'm NOT suggesting that kids, let anyone ANY GOOD coaches, are putting themselves in ultra tight boots because of the legend of Bode, BTW.
Just explaining his setup. Short boot, opened up a ton in length. BIG punch at the ankle. This BTW, as post SL days.
Letting any kid young enough to think the tiny boot thing "works" do it is NUTS.

I'll stick with my theory that the best kids tend to have the best coaches who absolutely know what they are doing with this!

 

[RuleMiHa]

I'm NOT suggesting that kids, let anyone ANY GOOD coaches, are putting themselves in ultra tight boys because of the legend of Bode, BTW.
Just explaining his setup. Short boot, opened up a ton in length. BIG punch at the ankle. This BTW, as post SL days.
Letting any kid young enough to think the tiny boot thing "works" do it is NUTS.

I'll stick with my theory that the best kids tend to have the best coaches who absolutely know what they are doing with this!

FWIW I know nothing about that world but knowing what I know about human nature it is very easy to see what you describe happening, especially if you factor in parents who don't let good coaches do their jobs.

 

[Muleski]

Kids in the huge majority of programs, with good coaches are in well fitted boots. My hunch is that of kids who are in boots that don't fit, more that 9/10 are too big.

An experienced coach will recognize a boot that is too tight {and generally painful} quickly, and have the parents fix it.

The solution to parents like that is to refund the fees and remove the family from the program, should they take a stand on something that dumb.

Ski racing covers a wide horizon. I keep that in mind. My experience is with "pretty good" programs. Parents and kids learn about boot fitting at about age six.

Left to their own devices, kids love to emulate sports heros. Every single girl under about 13 wants to be Mikaela and "needs" tobr ob Atomic, with LEKI poles, in her mitts, and Oakley goggles....and maybe the blue Barilla helmet!

But hopefully boots that fit!

 

[James]

Because skiers do not directly derive the majority of their income from prize money, the ski/boot companies can and obviously do hold them hostage.

To me it is about results, and I would use the best for my results.

So, what is Olympic gold worth? Would a different boot on your contracted ski give you a better chance to win Gold? This is a question I would be asking myself.

Funny side note, I once had a company pay me a lot to NOT wear another companies hat. And just to be fair, I was not that good!!!!

So, another newbie question..... Are Ski/Boot companies more interested in selling skis or boots?

Well I think this is like the current flood of non compete clauses by employers. Don't want to sign? Fine. See ya. Now sure, maybe if they want you bad enough you could modify it.

The fact is there's probably only a few people that have any supposed power in ski racing. Lindsey, Mikaela, Hirscher. Maybe a couple others in Europe. I don't see Mikaela bucking the one brand phenomena. nor Lindsey. @Primoz would know about this.

There's no way putting all one's eggs in the Olympic basket makes sense. So much can go wrong for those two minutes. Plus you can't get there without wcup results and you can't get that without sponsors.

 

[Muleski]

Agree, @James. Makes good sense.

The significant money, leverage and power among athletes {and their agents} does not spread that far. Surely not far enough to upset this apple cart.

Agent negotiates big contract. Athlete agrees to ski/boot/binding package. Company agrees to build whatever athlete needs. And provide service and support. All good.

Move lower down the totem pole. Less money, lower on pecking order for skis. No custom anything. Less service.

At some point, what you want are decent skis. Free is better. You pretty much assume the boots can be made to work. Skis and boots for your girlfriend.

Few athletes can really drive this. If they are shown more love by one company than others, they headtgat way, generally speaking.

Once in a rare while it can blow up. Rare. A company can struggle. In recent years, it was reported that Head really struggled with boots that Mancuso liked and could ski well. Was it the boots, or her? Don't know.

If you're going to get paid more with one brand, and are going to be their number one, why not.

If MS moves when her contract is up at the end of the season, bet the farm on it being to one brand, or brand family.

 

[Tony S]

OK, so now I have another thought...

Boot angles would be a lot easier to control/determine if all bindings had the same delta. I find it amazing that there is not an industry standard and then adjust the boot angle accordingly

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the goal of all these companies is to make the world better for skiers. In fact their goal is to make money. Fomenting confusion and dispute by espousing unnecessary complexities and idiosyncrasies is a classic way to build a brand with allegiance. Hell, we can't fix this with healthcare and education. Why should we expect anything better from an industry that nothing really important ( ) rests on?

 

[hbear]

Golf and skiing are of course different, but a golfer can do a contract to use as much or as little as they choose in the equipment/bag/ball/hat/clothes combination. Of course compensation is geared to the amount of exposure the combination provides for the equipment company.

I would think that a skier would be able to work a deal in a similar fashion, and IF a boot made them a better skier I can’t imagine that he/she would not pursue that avenue.

The history of professional golf is littered with guys who have switched equipment, be it the ball and/or clubs after a good year and took the money who never played to the same level with that new brand. Many times they switch away from the new stuff when they realize they are not getting the same results.

In golf, it is the ball that is most important in that it has the largest impact on performance, next would be the clubs (I will refrain from breaking down the clubs into parts, but yes clubhead/shafts and combinations of such have a huge impact).

So, a Bode (obviously formerly) and now MS et.al. should be looking at results.

One HUGE difference is that there is so freaking little prize money in skiing, whereas in golf using inferior (for you) equipment really hits the players in their wallets.

Good analogy but golf too has similar stipulations. Good luck having a Ping deal and not playing 13 out of your 14 clubs as Ping. When Nike was into hard goods, good luck having a deal that was equipment only (you had to wear Nike clothes too). Taylormade staffers HAD to play their driver, etc.

And those were the deals for the top guys, not the guys on the b circuit. Those deals were even more restricting.

Of course the $$$ being thrown around for top players in golf is so much bigger than top racers/skiers the athlete is well compensated for this.

When is the last time you heard of a ski racer (any in history) signing for a nine figure payday? Even a $50mil payday, yeah me either.

 

[Started at 53]

Good analogy but golf too has similar stipulations. Good luck having a Ping deal and not playing 13 out of your 14 clubs as Ping. When Nike was into hard goods, good luck having a deal that was equipment only (you had to wear Nike clothes too). Taylormade staffers HAD to play their driver, etc.

And those were the deals for the top guys, not the guys on the b circuit. Those deals were even more restricting.

Of course the $$$ being thrown around for top players in golf is so much bigger than top racers/skiers the athlete is well compensated for this.

When is the last time you heard of a ski racer (any in history) signing for a nine figure payday? Even a $50mil payday, yeah me either.

Nike, when they had hardwoods as you said, was by far the most restrictive contract in all of golf. TaylorMade is a Driver company, that is their bread and butter so it is THE contract, not just part of the contract.

I was a PING player for a long time, I played 14 clubs for quite a few years AND wore the hat. $$$$$$$. But beyond Nike as mentioned above, and TM regarding the driver, there is/was lots of wiggle room to taylor (pun intended) it the way you wanted.

Ideally you wanted to be with a PING-like company, and then you could have a shoe deal, a ball deal etc..

I get that skiing does not offer the athletes many options, and the companies are in the driver’s seat in the negotiations. Sad for the guys/gals risking their lives for the contracts.