Sizing Down in Boots - The current situation per brand

[onenerdykid]

Salomon may well have used steel molds to make the shells for their rear entry boots, the surface finish on the SX90 had an electrical discharge machining look. Today all the major boot brands including Salomon use aluminum molds. Using steel molds to make 2/3 piece ski boots would be a nightmare.

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Theses days the shells and cuffs are modeled using wooden mosaic which is held together with a 2-componant resin filler. The models are shaped with hand tools and then scanned into surface modeling software.

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Resin molds are then made, which are used to make prototype boots from polyurethane casting resin. After the design is finalized it is sent to the toolmaker either as a resin model which is scanned into their mold design software or as a data package which is imported. The boot design is then scaled up and down by the toolmaker to get the required sizes. I don’t think allometry is taken into account during this process, which at least partially explains why the sizing of ski boots is a bit wacky. Due to advances in software and 3D printing the requirement for hand-built models and cast resin prototypes will diminish with time, Roxa say that their design process is already fully digital.

Since about 2009, Atomic has been creating all boots in CAD. No resin mock ups that are reversed engineered into CAD. We begin with 2-dimensional drawings that make their way into CAD, that CAD is used to create 3D printed STLs, and when that is approved, we go to mold work.

 

[Philpug]

Getting back to the SX boots from Salomon, while they had a injected liner which as Otto said was a bypass to a traditional liner which is the most expensive part of the boot to produce, the SX92/93 I would venture to say at the most parts per boot before or since and would be very expensive to produce today in its original design. I was also told that the molds for the last SX boots have been destroyed.

 

[James]

Molds were destroyed apparently because they were being taxed on them.

 

[onenerdykid]

Most molds are destroyed when the product is no longer offered. They stick around for about a year just in case something is needed but then they get recycled. There’s simply not enough space to keep years & years of inactive sizes sitting around.

 

[cem]

molds get destroyed for 2 reasons, taxable assets and space
materials of the molds are mostly aluminum but steel is still used by many companies for certain mold parts and even some complete molds, having just spent 3 days last week at 3 major manufacturers factories in Italy i can assure you this is true

i just wish someone would do an up to date version of the "how its made" show that could show the entire process in a little more detail (without selling the family silver) so that people could see the work that goes into producing a ski boot, the cad designer, the machine man who cuts the mold, the production process with some 25-30 people on the line each fixing a clip or a decal or a sole unit etc, the lines of machinists on industrial sewing machines stitching the liner pieces together to form the finished article etc etc

 

[Swiss Toni]

Since about 2009, Atomic has been creating all boots in CAD. No resin mock ups that are reversed engineered into CAD. We begin with 2-dimensional drawings that make their way into CAD, that CAD is used to create 3D printed STLs, and when that is approved, we go to mold work.

Many thanks for the update @onenerdykid I thought you guys must be further down the road with digitization than I described, but up to date information is very hard to come by.

i just wish someone would do an up to date version of the "how its made" show that could show the entire process in a little more detail (without selling the family silver) so that people could see the work that goes into producing a ski boot, the cad designer, the machine man who cuts the mold, the production process with some 25-30 people on the line each fixing a clip or a decal or a sole unit etc, the lines of machinists on industrial sewing machines stitching the liner pieces together to form the finished article etc etc

6 years ago, Neveitalia https://www.neveitalia.it/ made 6 videos in the Lange factory, which is were the photos I posted are from. I think the boot shown is the model before the Dual Core boot. Whilst not up to date they do give us some idea of the processes involved, unfortunately as you might expect they are in Italian.

Scarponi da Sci - Produzione - Visita allo stabilimento Lange https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ8jqe8eSKI

Scarponi da Sci - Lo Scafo - La Produzione Lange parte 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWuD4QwKETg

Scarponi da Sci - La Scarpetta - La Produzione Lange parte 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL53XJuiAuE

Scarponi da Sci - La Prototipazione - Produzione Lange parte 4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MY9r1Kua8pA

Scarponi da Sci - La Stampante 3D - Produzione Lange parte 5 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-ob9dBwNcU

Scarponi da Sci - Controllo Qualità - Produzione Lange parte 6 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwyryIRSQBA

 

[cem]

Many thanks for the update @onenerdykid I thought you guys must be further down the road with digitization than I described, but up to date information is very hard to come by.


6 years ago, Neveitalia https://www.neveitalia.it/ made 6 videos in the Lange factory, which is were the photos I posted are from. I think the boot shown is the model before the Dual Core boot. Whilst not up to date they do give us some idea of the processes involved, unfortunately as you might expect they are in Italian.

Scarponi da Sci - Produzione - Visita allo stabilimento Lange https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ8jqe8eSKI

Scarponi da Sci - Lo Scafo - La Produzione Lange parte 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWuD4QwKETg

Scarponi da Sci - La Scarpetta - La Produzione Lange parte 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL53XJuiAuE

Scarponi da Sci - La Prototipazione - Produzione Lange parte 4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MY9r1Kua8pA

Scarponi da Sci - La Stampante 3D - Produzione Lange parte 5 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-ob9dBwNcU

Scarponi da Sci - Controllo Qualità - Produzione Lange parte 6 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwyryIRSQBA

Those are all well and good, but as you say in Italian and you have to go into 6 separate sections, they also have too much chat and not enough of the doing, a single 2-3 min edit would be much more usable

we asked about about doing one even as a slide show type thing when we were at Lange in 2019 but they wanted to do it themselves and have full control (understandable, we are allowed very few pictures inside these factories)

dalbello did it a couple of years back but again it didn’t really hit the spot that we as boot fitters would love to have as an asset to share to let customers see the process in a simple way… some day we might get the production that we want and can use

 

[SpeedyKevin]

Ugh, I had a woman with a Stoltz boot ask me to make some adjustments for her.
After pulling the liner out, I brought it to her and said,
"No way I'm working on this boot. I'll fit you for a new boot, or you can go back to Stoltz or whoever hacked this liner, but I'm not touching it."

I didn't want to take any responsibility for this liner.

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What the.

 

[Gord Myrah]

I was going to post a thread called 'Running Shoe Size VS Ski Boot Size, but this thread covers that topic.

I have skied in various high performance rec boots: 25.5 Lange 130s, 24.5 Nordica SpeedMachine 130s, 24.5 Rossi 130s and in 2017 I changed to a 24.5 Tecnica Mach1 MV 110s (slowing down with age: 62).

My feet are 254mm long, 104mm across the toes, but skinny ankles and a mid height arch. I shell fit the inside of my 24.5 Tecnicas Mach1 MV 110s, and my toes have no extra width (are slightly squished), but about 3/4-1cm extra length. This makes it seem like Tecnica intended to have 2cm shell space since my mondo size should be 25.5, and my tecnicas are a 24.5 but still have almost an extra cm of length.

My jogging shoe size is an 8 or 8.5, my dress shoe size is about 7.5 (which is Mondo 25.5).

My weirdly wide foot has made boot fits a challenge for 52 years. The Tecnicas have been stretched and ground, but the stretch seems to have retracted after 5 years and the tight length positions my toes to close to the front which lacks toe width and creates a cold boot.

I read a review somewhere of a guy wearing 9.5 running shoes but purchasing a 25.5 tecnica cochise which seems like a 2 size drop. So I am wondering how close (or how much smaller) peoples purchased boot size is to their measured mondo size.

My questions are:
1) What is the typical difference between people's running shoe size ve ski boot size?
2) Do ski boot shells normally retract after a few years, or could I have caused that somehow? (FYI I use a proper ski boot dryer, and my boots are normally stored in a ski boot bag indoors i.e. not sunlight or high heat.)

I will be seeing a bootfitter this fall to either purchase new or re-stretch/grind the old boots (about 70 days skiing and 6 years old) and but would like to get a general idea what other do about downsizing / right sizing / performance fitting.

Thanks for any feedback you may have,
Gord

 

[cantunamunch]

My jogging shoe size is an 8 or 8.5, my dress shoe size is about 7.5 (which is Mondo 25.5).

I will just remind you that the various shoe sizes are not directly convertible to Mondopoint. They measure different things. Shoe sizing relates to the size of last the shoe was stitched around, with variable allowance (variable fudge factor). Mondopoint is the actual longest interior dimension.

Put another way, a 'size 7.5' might be as long as 26.5.

Conversion tables are like thesaurus entries. Just because two words are listed as synonyms doesn't mean they are exactly the same, only that they can be interchanged in some situations. We can no more say 7.5 is 25.5 than we can say 'sting' is 'ache' because they are both listed in a conversion table for the verb 'smart'.

My questions are:
1) What is the typical difference between people's running shoe size ve ski boot size?

Also don't forget that running shoes are made for feet that undergo shape changes related to running gait. Alpine ski boots absolutely are not. So someone with massive foot changes during running gait can make a 'big' downsize in going to alpine boots - where someone else with a more rigid foot cannot.

2) Do ski boot shells normally retract after a few years,

'Normally' is overgeneralising. Punches can draw back, yes.

I will be seeing a bootfitter this fall to either purchase new or re-stretch/grind the old boots (about 70 days skiing and 6 years old) and but would like to get a general idea what other do about downsizing / right sizing / performance fitting.

Find a good fitter and work with them consistently, so they can adapt to what works for you.

 

[Gord Myrah]

Thanks for the speedy reply. I now know a very good boot fitter up here and will definitely be working with him, I'm just doing a little homework first before I go see him mid-Sept when full stock is available.

 

[DerKommissar]

I'm running in a 11.5 currently, wear a 10.5 dress shoe, but ski a 27.5 S/Pro. I think I could make a 26.5 work with the right bootfitter and some patience. It's my high instep that makes going shorter more work than it needs to be.

 

[François Pugh]

If it makes you feel any better, the situation is similar in the case of racing leathers for motor cycles. I am currently breaking in a custom fit Dainese suit. If I didn't know better (I do), I would swear they just gave me the smallest one they had knowing it would eventually stretch to fit. BTW, if you are supposed to wear it over a strap-on back protector, why do they measure you without one on?

 

[cantunamunch]

BTW, if you are supposed to wear it over a strap-on back protector, why do they measure you without one on?

Candidate hypothesis: because measuring with a protector on introduces greater % error elsewhere than it reduces variability between different protector models.


For example if wearing one introduces 8% or greater error in shoulder-to-shoulder measurement but wearing different ones (of the ones available on market) only creates 2% variability in waist size...it'd be stupid to not just measure what's available directly and just make pre-set allowances.

 

[cem]

just adding to the size conversion confusion....1/2 sizes that don't exist the current mondo to uk/us size conversion is one of the few things that should expunged from the internet


a UK/US shoe size is based on an imperial measurement 1 size to the next is 1/3" (the whole thing started many hundred years ago with the span of the hand + 3 barley corns)

1/3" = 8.47mm which means when you do a straight conversion of "imperial" shoe size to mondo you are a touch over 1.5mm out every increment so over 10 sizes in a run you are more than 15mm out
as we know there are no half sizes in ski boots 26.0 and 26.5 are the same thing barring a volume reducer shim inside the liner or a thicker sock liner
therefore 26.0 cannot = US8 and 26.5= US8.5 because 26.0 and 26.5 are = to each other

add to this that each boot brand measures things a little differently and has its own idea of what the requirements for toe space are based on their "consumer" research..... so what does this all equate to in terms of ski boot fitting

what it means is simple...... I don't give a dam what shoe size in UK/US you buy, we will measure your feet in CM and then start the process based on the shell check and the heel instep perimeter (short heel girth) also in CM

so please folks, find out what your feet measure correctly in cm and work from there, stop talking about your running shoe size UNLESS of course you are buying running shoes

/end rant

 

[DebbieSue]

It happens I bought Tecnica Mach1 MV 110W 2023, when it was among the choices I was fitted to, in part because it was reviewed as “warm” with bigger toe box and although 110 performed higher. Are women’s boots designed to be warmer? This model has a wool component in the liner. Is that BS? Would an updated mach1 in the W be a good solution, esp if OP is not tall/has low calves.