Should you wear an avalanche beacon inbounds?

[ZionPow]

The patrol that I work for can respond to most inbounds slides within minutes unless it is in hike-to terrain. We practice beacon searches in simulated slide paths regularly and time each other to ensure proficiency. We make it a competition to make it fun but we take our times very seriously. We usually can signal search, coarse search, fine search, locate, probe and dig up a beacon in a slide path in less than 3 minutes. The key is for us to be notified of a slide in a timely manner if we didn't observe the slide occur. This is why skiing with a partner or group, keeping an eye on each other and calling 911 or patrol immediately if a slide occurs is crucial. As others have said, the best way to be safe is to get formal avy training including partner rescue training. Ski potential avy terrain with partners who are trained and carry their avy equipment. Practice partner rescue skills and encourage your ski partners to practice with you. I personally will not go out on an avy mitigation route with a partner unless I know that person is proficient to rescue me if needed.

We have RECCO detectors at every top shack and we practice finding objects with them. RECCO chips are passive reflectors and are not nearly as quick or accurate to find vs beacons. Beacons transmit a strong signal that is easy to locate by a trained searcher.

We also have avy dogs at the top shacks near our highest risk avy terrain. The dogs are incredible at finding anything buried that has a human scent. We dig dog holes and practice with them every week. The dogs can be dispatched to most in-bounds slide paths quickly unless it is hike-to terrain.

 

[Core2]

I wear my beacon in the lodge and I never wear helmets because that what the government wants us to do.

 

[Mike King]

If you have a beacon, why wouldn't you wear it on a big day? I can guarantee it will not help you if you aren't wearing it and have it in transmit mode. Even if the odds are small that you would be caught in an in-bound avalanche, it may slightly increase your odds of survival if you are caught in one.

Mike

 

[Slim]

If you have a beacon, why wouldn't you wear it on a big day? I can guarantee it will not help you if you aren't wearing it and have it in transmit mode. Even if the odds are small that you would be caught in an in-bound avalanche, it may slightly increase your odds of survival if you are caught in one.

Mike

I believe the OP’s was “Should resorts make beacons mandatory(in certain areas/times)”, no whether a skier should voluntarily choose to use the beacon they already own.

 

[Doug Briggs]

I don't think the OP was asking about mandatory use, just voluntary. The title is: 'Should you wear an avalanche beacon inbounds?'

The patrol at Breckenridge that are working the upper mountain, where slides would most likely occur, are wearing fully loaded avi packs: flotation, shovel, beacon and probe. They would respond to an inbound avalanche by doing visual, manual and electronic searches. Wearing a beacon would help them find you faster.

I haven't worn a beacon inbounds but I just might given this thread as a reminder and instigation.

(I always wear a helmet. They have saved my lives, hold goggles nicely and keep my head warm.)

 

[Rod9301]

If you wear a beacon on a big powder day, you should probably have a shovel as well.
Price not mandatory, with the new beacons you can probably find someone just as fast without probing

 

[slowrider]

I wear my beacon in the lodge and I never wear helmets because that what the government wants us to do.

I wear mine on Mahogany Ridge (bar so I can find my friends.

 

[JFB]

with the new beacons you can probably find someone just as fast without probing

Nope. A beacon will get you within a 3 or 4 ft of the victim, a probe locates them exactly. Calculating the mass of snow that you would have to move to dig a hole 8 ft in diameter (4 ft in all directions) in snow set up like concrete (which is what avalanched snow does) and moving all that snow instead of only the snow you really need to move is a big deal, especially considering the time you have to do it (6-8 min before brain damage occurs), making the probe a no-brainer.

That said, the primary purpose of wearing the beacon is so that patrol can find you if you are entrained, so the probe and shovel are secondary considerations. OTOH, I think I will start carrying shovel and probe on the days that I wear the beacon inbounds. In the backcountry, I consider carrying all 3 to be a practice not a decision.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....That said, the primary purpose of wearing the beacon is so that patrol can find you if you are entrained, so the probe and shovel are secondary considerations. OTOH, I think I will start carrying shovel and probe on the days that I wear the beacon inbounds. In the backcountry, I consider carrying all 3 to be a practice not a decision.

entrain:
to incorporate into concrete
to suspend in a vapor
to put aboard a train

 

[SpikeDog]

Turn your beacon to receive at Jackson Hole in any restaurant (especially at the top of the Bridger Gondi) during lunch and see how many hits you get. It'll go nuts.

 

[4ster]

entrain:
to incorporate into concrete

^This one

Although something like this could entrain a train...

 

[Rod9301]

Nope. A beacon will get you within a 3 or 4 ft of the victim, a probe locates them exactly. Calculating the mass of snow that you would have to move to dig a hole 8 ft in diameter (4 ft in all directions) in snow set up like concrete (which is what avalanched snow does) and moving all that snow instead of only the snow you really need to move is a big deal, especially considering the time you have to do it (6-8 min before brain damage occurs), making the probe a no-brainer.

That said, the primary purpose of wearing the beacon is so that patrol can find you if you are entrained, so the probe and shovel are secondary considerations. OTOH, I think I will start carrying shovel and probe on the days that I wear the beacon inbounds. In the backcountry, I consider carrying all 3 to be a practice not a decision.

Still disagree. Look at Andrew McLean's website, he explains the arguments for probing being slower.

 

[4ster]

Still disagree. Look at Andrew McLean's website, he explains the arguments for probing being slower.

I have not looked at McLean’s website but that statement is contrary to any of the training that I have ever done. More than a few courses & many, many mock searches with patrollers, UAC forecasters & guides. Protocol calls for a beacon search to within a meter or so, then a strike with the probe & finally shovel like a mad man! Of course, depending on the size of your crew some of these actions could be happening at the same time.

I could be wrong and perhaps things have changed since my last refresher but Imagine if the victim was buried 6, 10 or more feet deep in the photo I posted above. The avalanche transceiver is only going to get you a signal above the snow. To know exactly where to dig you would need to narrow it down with the probe strike.

Do you have a link to this on Mcleans website?

 

[SBrown]

Interesting.

http://straightchuter.com/to-probe-or-not-to-probe/

"It used to be that with a single-antenna beacon you could only narrow the victim’s location down to a box with dimensions that grew with the burial depth. With a multiple-antenna beacon, you can reduce their location down to a point instead of a box. With a three-antenna beacon, this point can be quite accurate, depending on the model. So in my opinion a probe is less important than it used to be, as long as you have a three-antenna digital beacon. However, there are other reasons to bring a probe: testing the snowpack before digging a pit, probing for crevasses, etc., but also there’s a possibility your touring partner forgot to turn his or her beacon on, it’s not working, or you might be involved in searching for someone in another party that’s not wearing a beacon. If I had to decide between bringing the extra weight of a probe (and a few other things) or the extra weight of an airbag, it would be a no-brainer (bring airbag)!"

[That's from the comments, not the author.]

 

[raisingarizona]

I have not looked at McLean’s website but that statement is contrary to any of the training that I have ever done. More than a few courses & many, many mock searches with patrollers, UAC forecasters & guides. Protocol calls for a beacon search to within a meter or so, then a strike with the probe & finally shovel like a mad man! Of course, depending on the size of your crew some of these actions could be happening at the same time.
View attachment 54482

I could be wrong and perhaps things have changed since my last refresher but Imagine if the victim was buried 6, 10 or more feet deep in the photo I posted above. The avalanche transceiver is only going to get you a signal above the snow. To know exactly where to dig you would need to narrow it down with the probe strike.

Do you have a link to this on Mcleans website?

I imagine if you’re in this sort of scenario you’re probably extracting a dead person.

 

[raisingarizona]

If it’s dumping hard at a ski area like Jackson, Alpine or Alta it’s not a bad idea to wear one. I always did skiing Jxn but your typical day there is probably >50% skiing the side country too.

 

[raisingarizona]

Interesting.

http://straightchuter.com/to-probe-or-not-to-probe/

"It used to be that with a single-antenna beacon you could only narrow the victim’s location down to a box with dimensions that grew with the burial depth. With a multiple-antenna beacon, you can reduce their location down to a point instead of a box. With a three-antenna beacon, this point can be quite accurate, depending on the model. So in my opinion a probe is less important than it used to be, as long as you have a three-antenna digital beacon. However, there are other reasons to bring a probe: testing the snowpack before digging a pit, probing for crevasses, etc., but also there’s a possibility your touring partner forgot to turn his or her beacon on, it’s not working, or you might be involved in searching for someone in another party that’s not wearing a beacon. If I had to decide between bringing the extra weight of a probe (and a few other things) or the extra weight of an airbag, it would be a no-brainer (bring airbag)!"

[That's from the comments, not the author.]

In the perfect world any time you’re feeling a little uneasy about conditions you hope to have clean run outs with a big fanning apron. I like my odds a whole lot more without terrain traps and in a moderate slide I hope I can fight enough to keep me on or real close to the surface but that’s not always the case. If things work out that way though, probing is hopefully unnecessary

Some of our classic couloirs here end abruptly in stands of trees, I won’t ski that stuff if I have any doubts.

 

[Rod9301]

I imagine if you’re in this sort of scenario you’re probably extracting a dead person.

Absolutely, buried 6 ft down week will take a lot of time to dig.

 

[Primoz]

Protocol calls for...

Protocol is one thing, reality is the other thing. I agree 100% we should learn and train to do things by the protocol. It makes us do less mistakes once real situation comes up, and outcome can have worse consequences, then just bad time on your instructor's stop watch. Just based on my experience, which I wish I would never have, and for which I wish noone else would ever have, I can say I agree with you 100% to follow protocol, but I can also tell that in real situation, sometimes it's faster if you don't follow it completely. In my story (whole story is somewhere on this forum), people on field before I arrived there should follow protocol, well they should first of all know it, if they go out in terrain and conditions like they were, and if they would, that guy would still be alive. Second part, where I say real situation makes it sometimes easier if you don't follow, was when I (unfortunately way too late) located that guy. If you transceiver shows 30cm or so as closes point, you don't need to lose time with probing, as 30cm are 2 or 3 shovels and you hit body already. On the other side, if victim is 1m deep or even more, those 30 or 40cm that could be wrong can mean another 2, 3 or 15min of digging and can actually be difference between life and death, so in that case, probe is definitely right way to pinpoint exact spot.

If I had to decide between bringing the extra weight of a probe (and a few other things) or the extra weight of an airbag, it would be a no-brainer (bring airbag)!"

In my mind, there should never be question of "extra weight" when it comes to these things. Airbag, transceiver, shovel and probe are obligatory equipment. Yes also airbag if you have it. If it means you are carrying extra 2kg because of this, well bad luck, you will be a bit slower on top, and maybe your skimo tour will be 2km shorter. But in my mind, your safety and your life are worth more then 100kcal you will burn more, or few seconds slower time to top of the hill, while carrying full equipment instead of just part of it.

 

[4ster]

@Primoz , I wholeheartedly agree. Like I said, shovel like a madman! When it comes down to it you got to do what you’ve got to do. I have too often been on mock burials where the team was way too calculated, wasting time trying to go by the book. Seconds count.