Should I Stay or Should I Go Now?

[Lorenzzo]

If I go there will be trouble, if I stay it will be double.

Sorry. This is the time of year when I re-evalute where I live and consider other ski town options. Park City and UT have been great but Vail Resorts is here now and it and economics are growing skier visits at most resorts.

My primary criteria:

1. Snow - amount, quality, season length
2. Terrain/Variety - bonus points for multiple resorts
3. Crowds - Uncrowded weekdays make weekend crowds ok
4. Services
5. Health Care
6. Accessibility
7. Real Estate - good upside, decent availability, reasonable investment fundamentals
8. Fun other than Skiing - Summer activities, partners in crime

Don't get me wrong...I won't die if I stay and ski DV and Snowbird but I'm a little bit of a tumbleweed and would like things less busy.

 

[SBrown]

Accessibility ... that means different things to different people.

Well, I guess all those things do, but are you talking ski in ski out or an hour or what?

 

[Lorenzzo]

Accessibility ... that means different things to different people.

Well, I guess all those things do, but are you talking ski in ski out or an hour or what?

I was actually referring to proximity to a major airport and to a lesser extent major highways. However, the way ypu're definimg it should also be a criteria. I'd say anything over 25 minutes presents something of a negative. Anything under 25 minites would be something of a positive.

 

[Philpug]

The snow isn't always deeper in the other ski town.

I guess it is weighing the pluses, with the minuses and also factor in what you cannot control, like moving to another ski townthat seems right then Vail coming in and buying htat mountain too and then you are right back where you started.

 

[James]

Just move to Vail...

 

[Lorenzzo]

The snow isn't always deeper in the other ski town.

I guess it is weighing the pluses, with the minuses and also factor in what you cannot control, like moving to another ski townthat seems right then Vail coming in and buying htat mountain too and then you are right back where you started.

I wish I would have foreseen that Powder would drop the ball, not renew their lease, Vail would take over, bring hordes, control the name, busy up the town, spread congestion to the other local resorts and get me to eat the same friggin turkey sandwich every day I'm at PCMR.

I'm usually better at due diligence. If I go, wherever I go, if Vail comes to town I'll move again.

 

[AmyPJ]

I wish I would have foreseen that Powder would drop the ball, not renew their lease, Vail would take over, bring hordes, control the name, busy up the town, spread congestion to the other local resorts and get me to eat the same friggin turkey sandwich every day I'm at PCMR.

I'm usually better at due diligence. If I go, wherever I go, if Vail comes to town I'll move again.

Move an hour north to Eden?

 

[Jim Kenney]

Lorenzzo, sorry I missed making some runs with you recently. Would have enjoyed hearing more of your perspectives on UT as my son just moved there and is considering home ownership. I know Bob is getting a little fed up with crowds at the Bird. A bunch of us will be back at Alta-Bird around the weekend of Apr 2 and 3 and maybe we can do some après-ski tail gating on bypass road.

I've spent 4 days at PC, 2 at DV, and 6 at Snowbird this winter in late Jan and then again in mid-March. I spent 2 days at PC last winter (Feb 2015 very poor conditions). I must say I love what VR has done for PC. As a tourist I think it's on a strong improvement curve. Added juice to the lift system, new restaurant on PC side just when things were looking kind of tired, new gondi making interconnect super easy. It's a huge domain now and I loved roaming all over it with a new discovery around each bend of the trail. Sure it's busy, but as soon as you head towards the highest trail pods things seemed to lighten-up. I also enjoyed the nice mix of "resort skiing" where you could do a black diamond, then a couple cruisers, then another black diamond on a different peak and just go exploring on like that for hours. Very big acreage and every inch of it up for grabs in the great conditions I experienced in late Jan.
Having said that, everywhere I went I asked locals and tourists what do you think about the changes? Tourists are mostly pleased. Locals not as happy. The big gripes from locals seem to be that the parking lots are fuller and the lift lines more disorganized. Frankly, they sounded a little spoiled to me. Again, as a tourist I appreciated the large, free, and convenient parking lots at the base of both PC and Canyons sides where I found open spaces every time I needed one. Also, if the lift corrals are minimally supervised, so what? I really never bumped into huge lift lines during my visits to PC in late Jan and early March anyway. Perhaps the one inconvenience for me was the difficulty in getting dinner reservations at night time in historic downtown during a long weekend in early March. I normally don't do much wining and dining so this is not on my radar screen, but in March I was accompanied by my non-sking wife who rates dining out as the highlight of her ski day We made do, but it was kind of a turn off to have to try three or four places before getting to eat and one night we wound-up in a crummy Chinese joint in a strip mall that was a wasted opportunity.
Also, if you bought property in the PC area before the VR invasion, then you might have a little golden parachute of real estate appreciation to apply to your next destination. Maybe you would like Driggs up by Grand Targhee and not far from Jackson??

PS: Ask me this same question in couple years from now after I expect to have a number of additional visits to Utah under my belt and perhaps I'll have an entirely different answer?

 

[Core2]

New Mexico or Southern CO. No Vail... yet.

 

[Lorenzzo]

Jim, I'm planning to do some real tailgating during April and May so I hope to see you out there.

As far as the merits and dismerits of Vail ownership, perspective is relevant, some of which is subjective and value driven. To merchants in town thus far Vail has had a positive impact. Town revenue is up substantially as is occupancy and skier visits. Although I suppose those merchants potentially affected by VR's efforts to trademark the name Park City might balance that and not give a thumbs up.

To residents, however, the effects aren't quite as favorable. Traffic from visitors is up fairly substantially, to the point of occasional gridlock, and the trails are a good deal more crowded. The ski experience has changed and is changing. The gondola is something of a benefit but honestly more novelty than meaningful. Other lift improvements are somewhat beneficial. Most residents probably don't place as much value on amenities and dining as vacationers.

Of greater concern to a resident is the longer term effect of VR as their marketing and growth in quarterly earnings pressures bring even larger crowds, parking fees and even greater traffic and more frequent gridlock. This isn't conjecture, the pattern is known from their ownership of resort assets in CO. We're already seeing greater crowding at other resorts, such as Snowbird, due to VR pulling more people to the Wasatch and compelling some Utahns to avoid PC.

To say the issue is awkward lift lines and fuller parking lots is, well, dismissive and kind of silly. To confer on Vail credit for increasing home values is curious. What are you basing that on? I submit VR has made and is making PC a marginally less attractive place to live. Home values have grown because of economic rebounding, demographics and the intrinsics of a ski town less than 45 minutes from a city and a hub airport.

Admittedly VR is a convenient target as some of the growth in activity is happening for the above reasons. Also, the Epic Pass has made skiing more affordable for more people. Some of my targeting of VR is kind of tongue-in-cheek. Although I've had experience partnering with large public companies and have become familiar with how they do business and the people who rise within them and I am not a fan.

However, much of this is kind of an aside because the kind of stuff we're addressing is just the way of the world. It isn't good or bad it just is. I didn't start this thread to judge or be critical of Vail. I started it because I have a set of priorities as far is what is important to me relative to skiing and where I choose to live, which has different metrics than choice of vacation. I'm happy paying a little more for a higher quality experience, better snow and less crowding. If there is a better place somewhere I want to consider it. If there isn't, I've loved living in Park City. Even with the ongoing change and growth I'm fine sticking around.

 

[tromano]

Snowbasin has been super crowded shit show at times this season too (relative to normal). It's the economy. More money, more problems.

I only go to park city in the summer time. It's a toss up between PC and cache valley as my favorite spot in ut to spend a summer weekend.

 

[nay]

Vail would take over, bring hordes, control the name, busy up the town, spread congestion to the other local resorts and get me to eat the same friggin turkey sandwich every day I'm at PCMR.

I'm usually better at due diligence. If I go, wherever I go, if Vail comes to town I'll move again.

Vail did that in one season? Or did you just notice now ?

I get that Vail made you eat turkey sandwiches, but how did they spread congestion to other resorts?

 

[Philpug]

This is my second trip to Utah this year and quite frankly it made me long for being back in Reno. Everyone has whats important to them, I like Park City and Deer Valley skiing but I don't like the cost of it. I am talking about what it costs to live, we love our house and to replace it in PC or even the outlying areas just isn't worth the cost....to us.

 

[quant]

I wish I would have foreseen that Powder would drop the ball, not renew their lease, Vail would take over, bring hordes, control the name, busy up the town, spread congestion to the other local resorts and get me to eat the same friggin turkey sandwich every day I'm at PCMR.

I'm usually better at due diligence. If I go, wherever I go, if Vail comes to town I'll move again.

It would have happened with or without Vail. Remember, all the then-seven (now six owned by five) ski areas were owned separately, and each operator wanted the SkiLink (which turned into One Wasatch, which turned into...). Something even bigger was on the horizon, and that was connecting all the resorts. It still may come but could be delayed since Vail is so successful at PCMR and everyone is already making money off their coattails. If Powdr had not fired Richard Devaux and if the lease had not been gathering dust in his old desk drawer past the due date, Canyons still would have changed hands and a connection of some type would have already happened.

The bad news for those who want less growth and hate traffic is the current success of PCMR (bringing more tourists back in the summer) and the upcoming Deer Valley lift going into Park City, which will bring more tourists into the area. The other bad news for those who do not like growth is that the economy is not going down the tubes. Wealth is being created for the Top 10% of earners--the ones who purchase second homes--and they are buying again.

How successful is Vail at PCMR? The numbers will come out soon enough, but rents on the properties managed by Vail have significantly increased, with some effectively (there are ski packages that make the nightly rate not meaningful) doubling. You can rent within walking distance to the lifts at Heavenly for $99 per night, or spend triple that at PCMR (a one-bedroom lock-off at the Grand Summit is $600+ per night on weekends).

 

[David Chaus]

I have yet to run into crowds in Idaho. Schweitzer remains one of my favorites, and Sandpoint and Couer d Alene are beautiful yet still affordable places to live, and not far from Spokane airport.

And no smog inversions.

 

[BobMc]

I know Bob is getting a little fed up with crowds at the Bird.

Jim,

My gripe isn't with the crowds at any certain resort. My problem with the Wasatch is the growing crowds and the utter lack of anything except to promote more crowds. When I moved here in 1995 the transportation system was exactly the same as it is today (Into the canyons). Back then the summertime trailheads (White Pine, Spruces, etc.) were vacant in the winter. I'd bet skier visits have doubled in the time I've been here, but the infrastructure to get them to the hill hasn't changed. The lots overflow, the bus stops are full, and the trailheads fill up early.

Yet, the push seems to be for development that will encourage more visits with no real solution to the problems we face. I'd be behind any proposal that offers some serious solutions, but so far I haven't seen them.

Meanwhile, I'll continue to sit in traffic on any semblance of a powder day, and dream of moving away to my little slice of heaven.

 

[BobMc]

It would have happened with or without Vail. Remember, all the then-seven (now six owned by five) ski areas were owned separately, and each operator wanted the SkiLink (which turned into One Wasatch, which turned into...). Something even bigger was on the horizon, and that was connecting all the resorts. It still may come but could be delayed since Vail is so successful at PCMR and everyone is already making money off their coattails. If Powdr had not fired Richard Devaux and if the lease had not been gathering dust in his old desk drawer past the due date, Canyons still would have changed hands and a connection of some type would have already happened.

The bad news for those who want less growth and hate traffic is the current success of PCMR (bringing more tourists back in the summer) and the upcoming Deer Valley lift going into Park City, which will bring more tourists into the area. The other bad news for those who do not like growth is that the economy is not going down the tubes. Wealth is being created for the Top 10% of earners--the ones who purchase second homes--and they are buying again.

How successful is Vail at PCMR? The numbers will come out soon enough, but rents on the properties managed by Vail have significantly increased, with some effectively (there are ski packages that make the nightly rate not meaningful) doubling. You can rent within walking distance to the lifts at Heavenly for $99 per night, or spend triple that at PCMR (a one-bedroom lock-off at the Grand Summit is $600+ per night on weekends).

If skiing has a soul it resides nowhere near you.

 

[James]

God forbid the US ever puts in like a train, funicular, whatever to get up to the mts. I guess our only hope is self driving cars. Except there's the traction issue. Not sure how Mr Google and Ms Tesla are at snow driving.

Well Aspen has horrendous traffic. Are they owned by Vail too?

 

[tromano]

Jim,

My gripe isn't with the crowds at any certain resort. My problem with the Wasatch is the growing crowds and the utter lack of anything except to promote more crowds. When I moved here in 1995 the transportation system was exactly the same as it is today (Into the canyons). Back then the summertime trailheads (White Pine, Spruces, etc.) were vacant in the winter. I'd bet skier visits have doubled in the time I've been here, but the infrastructure to get them to the hill hasn't changed. The lots overflow, the bus stops are full, and the trailheads fill up early.

Yet, the push seems to be for development that will encourage more visits with no real solution to the problems we face. I'd be behind any proposal that offers some serious solutions, but so far I haven't seen them.

Meanwhile, I'll continue to sit in traffic on any semblance of a powder day, and dream of moving away to my little slice of heaven.

How cool would it be if they put trax up LCC / BCC?

 

[Lorenzzo]

Vail did that in one season? Or did you just notice now ?

I get that Vail made you eat turkey sandwiches, but how did they spread congestion to other resorts?

I'm not sure I understand your point in the first part. I wasn't addressing only what's happened so far but what may happen in the future, which given everything seems likely.

As to the second part, is it really necessary to explain how crowds might spread out among resorts as one or more becomes overrun?