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Alexzn

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Asa a contribution to the thread, here is some relatively fresh numbers on performance of various fabrics. GorePro shell has come a long way it is fully competitive with eVent now, so the choice between NeoShell and Gore just became a lot more difficult. Interestingly, the company who really put NeoShell onto the skiers' radar screen, FlyLow with the LabCoat jacket, just replaced NeoShell with Event DV Expedition fabric, which is LESS breathable than GoreTex Pro (but probably still is more air permeable, and thus still would feel a bit airier until you start to sweat).
Screen Shot 2017-11-09 at 10.40.46 PM.png
 

Ron

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Great chart! Just don’t forget to choose the fabric/membrane that fits your needs not just the “most”;h20 proof or breathability For instance, skiing in Colorado, we don’t need more than about 10k H20-proof but higher breathability and certainly windproof-ness is valued.
 

DonC

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Are these the manufacturers claimed numbers or test results? MH at one point claimed their Dry.Q elite eVent variation to be 40k/30k and slightly air permeable.
 

Slim

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Yes, Alex, could you elaborate a bit more on this table?
Who tested these, each in house, one manufacturer, or third party?
What breathability tst was used?
Werethese membranes only or laminates?

Thanks for posting this, really great info!
 

PTskier

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Some posts have mentioned windproof. That's important. I don't know where to find a spec for wind permeability. I got a Haglöfs parka a few years ago, and it was the first really windproof shell I'd worn. It was warmer without extra layers. That shell is now history, and I'm very satisfied with my Trew parka. Trewgear.com has great sale prices periodically...I have my eye on their 3/4 bibs.

Are breathability and permeability opposites? I want very low permeability, and I'll give up a lot of breathability. That's what pit zips are for.

The difference I've seen in ski shells and all-year shells is the size of the hood. The ski shell needs a hood big enough to go over a helmet. That's uncomfortably big (for me) without a helmet.
 

Ron

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Breathability and windproofness aren’t necessarily co dependent. I won’t ski in any gear that doesn’t breathe decently. It will make you feel colder. The process of absorption, transfer and external evaporation won’t be resolved by opening pit zips. That will just allow heat to be vented. It won’t keep you dry.
 

Alexzn

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This is a good test, although I disagree with their spin on air permeability vs water vapor permeability. Water vapor is still the critical parameter, because this is ultimately what you want, you want the air between your skin and your jacket to be less moist. Of course more air permeability helps to move that water vapor out.
 

DonC

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Breathability and windproofness aren’t necessarily co dependent. I won’t ski in any gear that doesn’t breathe decently. It will make you feel colder. The process of absorption, transfer and external evaporation won’t be resolved by opening pit zips. That will just allow heat to be vented. It won’t keep you dry.

The funny thing is that companies started putting these waterproof laminates in ski jackets long before they were breathable enough to be functional for skiing (at least for my physiology). On a new or retreated jacket the DWR coating is doing the work and the waterproof factor below is not really a factor for most conditions. But once Gore made its big marketing push everyone needed to claim their stuff was waterproof.
 

Ron

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That’s because before gore cam along and accidentally created gore Tex, there were no waterproof materials beyond wax coated fabric and a plastic bag.
 

Slim

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Be careful with Nikwax technology. It's not a membrane, so even if it works as advertised, it will not work in all situations. For example, if you sit on a wet chair, Analogy fabric should soak through. The "technical" stuff on Paramo website is a prime example of the BS clothing companies push on the customers. There is nearly zero techncial information there, just uninformative marketing fluff.

I agree about info on a company website, but there are plenty of tests and reviews by knowledgeable outdoors people, including Steve Townsend, who, as a Scott, certainly know wet weather! (Article)

I own a pair of pants and jacket with the Nikwax Analogy Fabric (made by Cioch-Direct, not Paramo, since they make custom garments, which is the only way I get the fit I want). I have had it for several years now.

They have kept me dry from rain even in thunderstorms. You are right though, when sitting or kneeling on wet surfaces it does soak through. My pants have reenforcements on the butt and knees, made of a lightly coated fabric, to help slow down the soak through.
I have considered replacing those patches with GTX.
It's important to remember that popular softshell pants, as well as many WPB fabrics with low hydrostatic head (<10,000mm) will also soak through on these pressure points. My daughters demonstrate his every winter, with their waterproof snow pants.

I certainly agree that it you regularly encounter wet chairlifts etc, I would choose a more waterproof pair of pants, especially since legs don't sweat quite as much as torsos, but for jackets, it's hard to imagine a situation where it isn't the most comfortable fabric.
Without any coating or lamination, the fabric hand is soft, supple and silent. it provides light insulation like a fleece lined soft-shell, but has a smooth inner surface that slides well over layers. Air permeability and breathability are unsurpassed, and if, in very cold or very wet conditions, you start to have condensation forming liquid water inside your clothing, it will still move that outwards. It's also still works even with small holes in it and doesn't need to be taped, so if you rip it on trees or something like that, you can simply sew it up and you are good to go.
 
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palikona

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Can someone comment on Marmot's 20 denier Stretch NanoPro...good for inbounds? How does it compare to other shell materials?
 

martyg

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Before you get too wrapped up in breathability.... It is worth mentioning that if you are resort skiing you probably want to limit breathability, unless it is a 50 - 60 degree day.

With the relatively low physical output of alpine skiing you want to maintain that moist, semi-tropic micro-climate next to your skin. If you get into a highly breathable fabric you compromise that micro-climate. Neoshell and eVent (eVent also aggressively private labels their technology) come to mind in that category

For touring, I am all about breathability. For lift serve - not so much.
 

neonorchid

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Before you get too wrapped up in breathability.... It is worth mentioning that if you are resort skiing you probably want to limit breathability, unless it is a 50 - 60 degree day.

With the relatively low physical output of alpine skiing you want to maintain that moist, semi-tropic micro-climate next to your skin. If you get into a highly breathable fabric you compromise that micro-climate. Neoshell and eVent (eVent also aggressively private labels their technology) come to mind in that category

For touring, I am all about breathability. For lift serve - not so much.
Say what?

You lost me!

I certainly don't want to be sweaty and clamy where when once I stop I freeze my butt off.

Interestingly, when on the chairlift with temps in the single digits the 3-layer Goretex TNF Enzo shell literally feels like the wind is blowing right thru it, while the Polartec Neoshell Eddy Bower First Ascent Neoteric Jacket does not. Go figure. :huh: I once tried the Goretex Enzo shell XC skiing in a heavy snow storm and had to abort because I was drenched with sweat. Got fairly sweaty doing the same in the First Ascent Neoshell jacket too but not as bad.
 

martyg

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Say what?

You lost me!

I certainly don't want to be sweaty and clamy where when once I stop I freeze my butt off.

Interestingly, when on the chairlift with temps in the single digits the 3-layer Goretex TNF Enzo shell literally feels like the wind is blowing right thru it, while the Polartec Neoshell Eddy Bower First Ascent Neoteric Jacket does not. Go figure. :huh: I once tried the Goretex Enzo shell XC skiing in a heavy snow storm and had to abort because I was drenched with sweat. Got fairly sweaty doing the same in the First Ascent Neoshell jacket too but not as bad.

The degree of breathability in any particular garment is as much dependent on the face material and DWF and amount of wear as it is the particular technology that the garment employs for waterproofness / breathability.

How much energy output you experience when alpine or Nordic skiing is a direct reflection of your metabolic and technical efficiencies.
 

neonorchid

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Before you get too wrapped up in breathability.... It is worth mentioning that if you are resort skiing you probably want to limit breathability, unless it is a 50 - 60 degree day.

With the relatively low physical output of alpine skiing you want to maintain that moist, semi-tropic micro-climate next to your skin. If you get into a highly breathable fabric you compromise that micro-climate. Neoshell and eVent (eVent also aggressively private labels their technology) come to mind in that category

For touring, I am all about breathability. For lift serve - not so much.
The degree of breathability in any particular garment is as much dependent on the face material and DWF and amount of wear as it is the particular technology that the garment employs for waterproofness / breathability.

How much energy output you experience when alpine or Nordic skiing is a direct reflection of your metabolic and technical efficiencies.
Yes, depending on the technology, i.e., G-tex, E-vent, Neoshell and I'll throw in Columbia's Out-Dry, but I'm still lost wrt "that micro-climate".
You still lost me. Are you alluding to the convection action required under a G-tex fabric in order for vapor (sweat) to pass thru the fabric to the surface?
 
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martyg

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Yes, depending on the technology, i.e., G-tex, E-vent, Neoshell and I'll throw in Columbia's Out-Dry, but I'm still lost wrt "that micro-climate". Are you alluding to the convection action required under a G-tex fabric in order for vapor (sweat) to pass thru the fabric to the surface?

What I am referring to is the micro-climate that all of this technology allows us to enjoy next to our skin. As a species we were ever cut out for cold weather living. Regardless if it is animal skis, felt woven from musk ox hair or polyesters, that technology allows us to carry a semi-tropic micro-climate against our ski and keeps us comfortable, if not alive.
 

neonorchid

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What I am referring to is the micro-climate that all of this technology allows us to enjoy next to our skin. As a species we were ever cut out for cold weather living. Regardless if it is animal skis, felt woven from musk ox hair or polyesters, that technology allows us to carry a semi-tropic micro-climate against our ski and keeps us comfortable, if not alive.
I'm going to move past that argument and say that I think the base layer and mid layer(s) are going to be more of a factor with that then G-tex Vs. Neoshell outer shell. I have been just as comfortable and uncomfortable in Goretex as I have in Neoshell.
 
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martyg

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I'm going to move past that argument and say that I think the base layer and mid layer(s) are going to be more of a factor with that then G-tex Vs. Neoshell outer shell. I have been just as comfortable and uncomfortable in Goretex as I have in Neoshell.

No argument. A question was asked and I answered. If you had access to third party independent testing labs and regularly were immersed in design work you'd understand the interdependence.
 

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