Seeking help getting through / past intermediate stage - focus on skis

[DoryBreaux]

Narrower waist = less distance to go edge to edge = "easier" to go edge to edge. I say "easier" because there's a lot more than just how quick a ski is edge to edge. A slalom ski will be very quick edge to edge. Too quick, most likely. SL skis aren't a one trick pony, maybe more of a 1.5 trick pony. Don't get a slalom ski. A ski with a shorter turn radius, yes. But at 11.5 or 12 meters or whatever it is now, a FIS or beer league slalom ski will be too much to manage whilst still progressing your skiing at this point.
Next lesson you take, talk to your instructor about gear and try and feel out if they actually know what they're talking about when it comes to ski choice. I know a lot of level 3 (and even some higher) instructors who are totally oblivious to ski tech. It's unfortunate, but it's true (I don't mean the ones that don't like anything over 100ish underfoot, that's just personal preference). If they seem to know what they are talking about, seen their advice. They're the ones watching you ski, and there the ones that should be able to tell you if you're ski is helping out hindering your body performance. Which directly effects ski performance. Vicious cycle .
Alternatively, upload a video of yourself skiing, and the brain trust (us) can try and confuse you even more .

 

[Snowcat]

Hey, thanks to all of you for sticking with me while I'm figuring this out...this has been tremendously helpful!!

Re: 70's width skis I tried:
OK, I did some investigation (asked my friend) and they were Head Magnums. I actually quite liked them. Tail seemed visually scary because they are so huge and squared off but didn't really have trouble with it. They were really fun and stable and easy to tip on edge but I felt like I had to work to bend them because they are pretty stiff.

Some comments:
@Plai - interesting point about trying to understand the attribute of skis I like to figure out what it is that's contributing to that feeling. I know I'm asking about gear here and while I really just want to forget about my skis rather than be a gearhead, that information seems like it could be helpful to narrow things down. I definitely don't want for the gear side of things to be expensive but I imagine to there will be some cost to the learning process and I'm ok with that.

@Analisa - that was an awesome post! exactly the type of thing I'm trying to learn and I like that W/D analogy - very clear. Your post also makes the point about compromising very clear and unfortunately I have been starting to understand that on my own as well. Yeah, the E84 Cadillac analogy is not far off for me. In some ways that ski is cushy and I don't really feel like provides me with maybe feedback that would be good for me like @flbufl was pointing out? I like your point on different ways to turn. I haven't quite seem it laid out like that. I can skid (like any intermediate!), carve (though not always as consistently as I'd like on steeper terrain because you can pick up so much speed), and have just started playing around with steering and jump turns (latter from watching some racers and it looked like they were jumping...I suspect they weren't and were just getting pop after each turn?). As an aside, all the best with your own development and explorations!

@KingGrump - I've definitely heard that about speed hiding sins. Still, what I was referring to was the first 1-2 turns before I start to get a good balance point.

@LiquidFeet - thank you. very helpful and exactly the type of insight I was looking for!

@flbufl - funny I was just thinking the same thing about trying soft rental skis to see what undergeared is like. Cheap way to experiment. I did 1 day on rentals when I first started, decided they sucked and it was too much hassle and have been on the E84s since then (cheap since there were many huge sales and good first ski I think!)

@DoryBreaux - yeah I've found instructors I've had to have no clue about gear. One said I should be on 120 flex boots even though I'm under 150lbs and an intermediate. I will keep trying!


More questions:

• advanced skis that don't bend vs pop back - seems like former is bad! is it a good idea to look for the latter?
• I know I pretty much implied I wasn't looking for specific ski recommendations. However, beyond skiing a soft rental ski, I'm thinking it might be a good idea to demo a softer flex ski in the 80 range as part of my learning process. Any suggestions?

p.s.
I'm starting to think developing a feel of skis and understanding which might be most productive for the development of my skiing may be a little like learning about wines. At some point, you gotta just drink a whole bunch of different ones to develop your own sense ... in this case, after learning from all of you here, try different skis and develop my own sense...

 

[KingGrump]

I've definitely heard that about speed hiding sins. Still, what I was referring to was the first 1-2 turns before I start to get a good balance point.

Yup, there is none or little speed during the first couple turn. Skiing is a game of balance.
Sounds like you are using the momentum generated from speed to aid your balance.
The lack of speed during the first couple turns just highlights the issues in your balance game.

Doesn't take much to do a round turn with speed. Takes a bit more to do a slow round turn.

 

[Snowcat]

Yup, there is none or little speed during the first couple turn. Skiing is a game of balance.
Sounds like you are using the momentum generated from speed to aid your balance.
The lack of speed during the first couple turns just highlights the issues in your balance game.

Doesn't take much to do a round turn with speed. Takes a bit more to do a slow round turn.

I think you are right on with that observation.

 

[Tony S]

I'm starting to think developing a feel of skis and understanding which might be most productive for the development of my skiing may be a little like learning about wines. At some point, you gotta just drink a whole bunch of different ones to develop your own sense

Well, now we are really getting somewhere. It's time for you to stop being the daughter's new date on probation and start being part of the family. Basically that involves two things: Attending a gathering and reading the shotzski threads.

 

[Analisa]

advanced skis that don't bend vs pop back - seems like former is bad! is it a good idea to look for the latter

Personal preference. The stiff skis do bend, but take more force. Volkl after all sells a lot of Mantras and Auras with this setup and they plow through crud conditions. It's kind of like luxury cars - stiff skis are the large SUVs with an extremely quiet ride, poppy skis are the maneuverable ones that are fun to drive.

Your wine metaphor is spot on. I love to dig into the specs and try to pick the perfect ski based on what's on paper. I've been both really right and way off. Not sure where you are, but I'd check to see if your local mountain has a day-long demo day or if you could line up one of your ski trips with a demo day at another mountain. They're usually in the spring after new gear has been announced. Most of the manufacturers come out and let you swap out skis throughout the day and try different models and lengths for a few runs each. Ulitmate "ski tasting" event.

 

[Snowcat]

More questions:

• advanced skis that don't bend vs pop back - seems like former is bad! is it a good idea to look for the latter?
• I know I pretty much implied I wasn't looking for specific ski recommendations. However, beyond skiing a soft rental ski, I'm thinking it might be a good idea to demo a softer flex ski in the 80 range as part of my learning process. Any suggestions?

One more question:

• ok, so I liked the Magnum and I know at a certain speed and effort I can bend them. Let's say I don't care about having my legs tire earlier. Is such a ski good from a development standpoint or is a softer ski that's easier to drive better?

 

[Snowcat]

Personal preference. The stiff skis do bend, but take more force. Volkl after all sells a lot of Mantras and Auras with this setup and they plow through crud conditions. It's kind of like luxury cars - stiff skis are the large SUVs with an extremely quiet ride, poppy skis are the maneuverable ones that are fun to drive.

How do you look for poppy skis? Is it based on reviews or can you tell from some type of spec? Are these typically high energy slalom type skis? In addition to the softer flex ski this sounds like another type of ski to demo!

 

[DoryBreaux]

One more question:

• ok, so I liked the Magnum and I know at a certain speed and effort I can bend them. Let's say I don't care about having my legs tire earlier. Is such a ski good from a development standpoint or is a softer ski that's easier to drive better?

Its not so much about how fast your legs tire as it is about can you really feel what the ski is doing? You will learn more on a ski that you can feel and (sooner or later) interpret the feedback from. Could you tell when the ski was bent vs when it was just skidding? A lot of people can't feel this because they are on too stiff a ski. It works both ways though; I cant really tell a lot about what a ski on the far soft end of the spectrum is doing because at 250+, I can beyond overflex some softer skis.
I guess what I'm saying is if you have to put extra power into your skiing to get the ski performance you are looking for, then its probably too stiff a ski for where you are at currently. Thats why I said don't go with a slalom ski; would you give an average driver the keys to a rallycross car and cut them loose?

ON another note, this thread is really making me think more about how ski flex effects learning, and inspiring me to pay more attention to it with my own students. So thank you!

 

[Analisa]

How do you look for poppy skis? Is it based on reviews or can you tell from some type of spec? Are these typically high energy slalom type skis? In addition to the softer flex ski this sounds like another type of ski to demo!

A little bit of both. They tend to cater to the jib & butter crowd. I notice that it's a lot of guys who skied park through college and their early 20s and then started to spend more time on the rest of the mountain once their knees are covered under their own health insurance. Bamboo is generally pretty poppy, as well as poplar and aspen to a lesser extent. Anything named after a freeride god (Atomic Bent Chetlers, Faction Candides, Armada JJs). They tend to have a full twin tip and the narrower ones always mention being good for the park and all mountain (like Line Blends, Armada ARV, K2 Poacher). They're the other end of the spectrum from a carving ski that tends to be narrower, super stiff, and have flat tails that don't release the turn as easily.

They cater to the skier that utilizes a slarve more often than carve, who looks for little natural hits to get air on the way down the mountain. They dream of cliff drops and tree taps. and maybe even signing up for a local freeride competition.

 

[Monique]

yeah I've found instructors I've had to have no clue about gear. One said I should be on 120 flex boots even though I'm under 150lbs and an intermediate. I will keep trying!

And here's where it's worth mentioning that flex numbers are NOT consistent between brands - and NOT even consistent between models of the same brand. "120 flex" is not that meaningful in isolation. Another reason boot fitters are worth their weight in gold (which is, I'm pretty sure, what I've paid them over the years).

 

[LiquidFeet]

.....
I'm starting to think developing a feel of skis and understanding which might be most productive for the development of my skiing may be a little like learning about wines. At some point, you gotta just drink a whole bunch of different ones to develop your own sense ... in this case, after learning from all of you here, try different skis and develop my own sense...

This.

A ski looks simple, but it isn't. There are more than three independent variables built into each ski. Manufacturers don't do a good job of communicating what they've built into a ski, because most buyers don't want to wade through that stuff, and even if they did (you???), they still couldn't predict how a ski would behave because there are too many factors involved.

When you demo, the tune can affect how the ski behaves, the demo binding may be different from the binding you put on the ski if you buy a new one in plastic, and the shop may not have the length you will ultimately purchase available for demo. No matter how hard you try to predict how a ski will behave, it's still a shot in the dark what you'll get. Unless you demo and buy the same ski.

The best guide will be a general idea of what you think you want - plus specific recommendations from informed "expert" skiers who know your skiing.

 

[AmyPJ]

As a chronic-overthinker (me.) My advice? You like the E84, which is also a ski that absolutely can rip on the feet of an expert, (I witness it weekly,) so, stick with it and JUST GO SKI. The length at this point is going to have as much of an effect on your ability to learn to turn the ski as anything. Not sure if you've been asked this, but what are your stats, and what length E84 are you on?

As far as slow speed: I worked on skiing at a snail's pace last weekend for several runs, learning to truly edge and make slow-speed railroad tracks. It.was.HARD! I was so frustrated with my early attempts, I may or may not have pitched a small fit. (I was also tired-it was the end of a long day.) I went out the next morning and it was the first thing I worked on. It was fun! Changed the way I ski in general. I did it on an 88 under foot.

You have a great ski that can grow with you. Maybe take the money you'd spend on another ski and invest in some private lessons?

 

[François Pugh]

Buy your friends skis, so he can have an excuse to get a new pair. They are a better learning ski than the 84s you have. Keep your 84s too. They are more versatile and more forgiving.

 

[Snowcat]

Well, now we are really getting somewhere. It's time for you to stop being the daughter's new date on probation and start being part of the family. Basically that involves two things: Attending a gathering and reading the shotzski threads.

Hey thanks for the invitation. Only time and budget for one main hobby right now

ON another note, this thread is really making me think more about how ski flex effects learning, and inspiring me to pay more attention to it with my own students. So thank you!

It's great to see that you are thinking about this as I think it could really help your students even if they don't know it yet. I'm sure some won't want to be bothered with it but others will probably love you for it!

A ski looks simple, but it isn't.

I'm quickly discovering that and it's been fun. At some point, I want to be done with this and not have to think about gear at all.

As a chronic-overthinker (me.) My advice? You like the E84, which is also a ski that absolutely can rip on the feet of an expert, (I witness it weekly,) so, stick with it and JUST GO SKI.

You are right. That's what my expert friends say. Day one one actually said go by a Mantra and be done with!

As far as slow speed: I worked on skiing at a snail's pace last weekend for several runs, learning to truly edge and make slow-speed railroad tracks. It.was.HARD! I was so frustrated with my early attempts, I may or may not have pitched a small fit. (I was also tired-it was the end of a long day.) I went out the next morning and it was the first thing I worked on. It was fun! Changed the way I ski in general. I did it on an 88 under foot.

Thanks for sharing. I"m trying to stack everything in my favor so I improve as quickly and efficiently as possible!

Buy your friends skis, so he can have an excuse to get a new pair.

My expert friends don't care about gear at all - they use a few skis until they are no longer serviceable!

 

[Lauren]

I realized as I was thinking through my situation that what I'm seeking is a better understanding of how to think about skis in the context of skill development and how I can learn to think about this on my own (you know, "teach a man to fish vs give him a fish"). I agree that what I need to develop is my own sense of what to look for and to understand what does and doesn't work. My original hope was to learn from the advice of more advanced folks like you here so thanks!

I'm starting to think developing a feel of skis and understanding which might be most productive for the development of my skiing may be a little like learning about wines. At some point, you gotta just drink a whole bunch of different ones to develop your own sense ... in this case, after learning from all of you here, try different skis and develop my own sense...

I think most people have agreed with your second statement, I agree with it as well. And I think it perfectly answers your first one I quoted here. There's no substitute for mileage. We can sit here and tell you, this flex, this width and this length will help you progress, but honestly there's no teacher like experience.

During late season and early season different mountains will often advertise demo days with many different brands...generally for a relatively inexpensive price. You can talk to the reps about what you want in a ski, and they'll recommend something for you...try it. Write down what you like and don't like about it. Then go home and do research on those skis you tried. What type of core did they have? How are they described by the manufacturer? What length did you try? What's the turn radius on that length? What type of profile (rocker, camber, hybrid)? In my opinion, this is the best way to get a sense of what to look for in a ski.

 

[KingGrump]

That's what my expert friends say. Day one one actually said go by a Mantra and be done with!

Dude is not your friend.

 

[Snowcat]

Its not so much about how fast your legs tire as it is about can you really feel what the ski is doing? You will learn more on a ski that you can feel and (sooner or later) interpret the feedback from. Could you tell when the ski was bent vs when it was just skidding?

I've been thinking about your comment and realized I don't really understand your last sentence . Can you clarify? Are you saying that if I can tell with a set of skis whether I am bending them vs just skidding them that they are giving me sufficient feedback? As an example, I definitely could tell with the Magnums when I was bending them vs just skidding...it just took more effort to bend them. I felt like I had to consciously drive the skis to bend them but of course the faster I went the easier this was to do.

I think most people have agreed with your second statement, I agree with it as well. And I think it perfectly answers your first one I quoted here. There's no substitute for mileage. We can sit here and tell you, this flex, this width and this length will help you progress, but honestly there's no teacher like experience.

Agreed! Still, this has all been very helpful because I now am better prepared to understand what to test, what to look for, etc. All good things!!

 

[LiquidFeet]

.... I felt like I had to consciously drive the skis to bend them but of course the faster I went the easier this was to do.....

I'm curious... what do you mean when you say "drive"?
I think you've used that word before in this thread.

 

[Snowcat]

I'm curious... what do you mean when you say "drive"?
I think you've used that word before in this thread.

I've seen that term used by friends and in some reviews that I've read. Not sure I'm using it correctly or in the way others are. I just mean that I have to consciously put in effort to apply pressure to bend them when I'm making turns so that I can feel them flex. The E84s require no such effort. However, I also don't feel like I get as much out of them when compared to the Magnums. Maybe this is the rebound effect or pop that people are referring to?

Now that I'm thinking about this, and comparing a ski like the E84 (non HD) to the Head Magnum, I feel like the Magnum requires more work to flex but I also like the response better... they are more lively or offer more rebound or something and I feel like I can get into a better rhythm with them. Mind you this was on just an hour or so on the Magnum. Not sure I'm making any sense here. @Analisa referred to the Cadillac feeling of the E84 and I would agree. But then again, I understand that lots of ski instructors use that ski and they can fly on that thing ...