School me on the Fischer Vacuum process

[Noodler]

I picked up a pair of the Fischer RC4 Curv 130 Vacuum boots. I already have Head Raptor B2 RD, B3 RD, and Overkill shells, but I had my reasons:

1. They were ridiculously cheap
   
2. They have shell material that isn’t as greatly impacted by temps (keeps the flex more consistent)
3. I wanted a softer flexing boot for deep snow days
4. They are much more upright (stated 12* forward lean, haven’t measured them yet)
5. They’re much lighter than any of my head boots
   
6. They have GripWalk replaceable soles available

So I've been researching the Fischer Vacuum process and trying to make a decision about having this done and if so, making sure I thoroughly educate myself before diving in. I think I've read every thread and watched every video out there for the Vacuum system. Here is the best video I found for the process:


Coming away from all this info, I still have a bunch of questions:

• How can you identify the newest version of the Vacuum stand machine?
• What's the difference between the different generations of the Vacuum stand?
• How much pressure do I really want them to set the machine to?
  • Dual zone compression sleeves, use 360 rear / 200 front (max pressure is 360?)
• How much time should they heat the shells (10 mins. @ 80* C)
• What should the buckle tension level be when forming?
  
• Why do they use the cooling pads? It seems to take a long time from pulling the boots from the oven until the pads and the compression bags are fully installed and inflated.

Any other advice anyone can offer is appreciated.

Note that my fit in these new boots is very "forgiving" - I really don't have any hot spots and what I generally need is more of a reduction in width (these shells are 97mm and my others are quite a bit narrower). I have an extra pair of ZipFit WC liners that I'm planning on using with the boots. The ZipFit makes the boot more "substantial" and I also replaced the stock strap with an expert model Booster.

 

[nesneros]

I don't have all of the answers, but I recently went through this and my process was slightly different than what is in the video. It would have been good to know the specifics you're asking for, though in general you'd hope the fitter knows what they're doing (in regards to pressure, buckle tension, etc).

My process differed in that they padded my feet, then put them in the liners, then put them in bags and vacuumed them down for ten minutes. Then we slipped the whole foot/liner/bag into the boots for molding. They also wanted me to ensure I didn't walk heel to toe getting onto the machine, but more of a flat stomping to avoid deforming the sole/toe/heel.

As far as the ice pack, I think they heat the boot to 80c but it remains pliable down to something like 50c (for this reason people also report warped boots if left in hot car). I'd be interested in knowing what the Tg is on this plastic they use. At any rate, they really need to get the temp down, all the way through, before you try to bend the boot at al (take your feet out) and in fact I believe the fitter took my boot away and put it in a fridge immediately after forming.

 

[Philpug]

@Drahtguy Kevin just had his done recently.

 

[Noodler]

Calling @KingGrump

 

[Decreed_It]

@MRT did mine, he's even done some custom mods/tools to the setup and could speak to it, I posted a thread about it here but didn't go deep into the specifics of the vacuum machine itself: https://www.pugski.com/threads/buh-bye-surefoot-hello-mike.16399/

 

[raytseng]

The only point where I had a different experience:
2) They have shell material that isn’t as greatly impacted by temps (keeps the flex more consistent)
What I found with my boots more is the material will not shrink or expand significantly due to temps, but the flex definitely still changes with temp; maybe not as greatly impacted, but flex still changes.

The fitter should be able to answer all these questions and what they have found works best with their techniques; and considering what you want to achieve.
The padding up of your foot with how much toe room and toe caps or other weird bumps or pressure points you have on your foot is going to be most of the "art" of it; while the pressure part and pressure setting is relatively mechanized.

The boots stay workable for awhile, they need get in the liner, a footbed, then your foot, get you buckled and set into the machine.
The cooling bags are just to speed the process,so you are done in like 10 minutes instead of standing there for 30minutes.
The buckles should be on the bail but should not be the mechanism to tighten you down, significant buckle pressure is just going to stretch out the buckle holes.

If your liner is thermomoldable, ask if they should preheat those on the airtubes so they also mold during the vacuum process to get it done all together, or in their experience 2 molds, or what..

Other tips:
Don't look down at your feet and resist trying to see what's going on. Look straight ahead as you would skiing, They should instruct you but you may find yourself peeking. If you are looking at a wall, hopefully they also put a poster or a picture for you to look at.
Ask your fitter regarding the forward lean settings, and also be careful but not to lean sideways one way or another. You may want to do some basic yoga practice to make sure you are stretched out and aligned and can stay balanced for 10minutes without getting a weird feeling you are leaning right or left. I believe paying attention to getting your setup right is more important that the actual pressure part.

Final tip, if your setup is good, buy replacement heels/toes soles now in case they become unavailable 5years from now.

 

[Swiss Toni]

The Fischer vacuum sport boots are made from a Nylon 6 / ionomer blend, the ionomer reduces the softening temperature to around 60°C. It was developed by DuPont at their European Technical Center in Geneva, here in Switzerland.

The latest fitting stations have dual chamber compression bags enabling different pressures to be set for the toe and heel sections, the original bags only had one chamber and the stand only had one compressed air outlet per bag. The one in your video is a first generation stand.

The cooling pads reduce the cooling time, the shells should have cooled to below 60°C before you get off the fitting stand otherwise the boots could deform further.

The SOMA-tec boot with its abducted stance was originally the idea of Johann Leitner, an Austrian boot fitter, the design was first licensed to Rexam.

 

[KingGrump]

Had three pairs of Fischer vac 130 pro since 2012. Been off them for two seasons. Primary reason – my boot guy doesn’t carry them anymore. That said, I really like the way they fitted and skied.

The molding process for me involved padding out the navicular, cuneiform and 6th toe areas. Toe caps are fitted prior to putting on a very thin pair of ski socks. My foot bed is then inserted into the liner. Stick my foot into the liner and lace them up real tight. Stick the foot & liner assembly into the heated shells. The buckles are latched very lightly. I have no clue what temp and time the shells are cooked. That is the boot guy's job.

Get on the vac stand and slide the boots into couple of long plates and put my knees into couple of supports. I like my boots pretty upright. IIRC, I believe it was 14 degrees. A couple of guys then messed with the ice packs, pressure bags and hoses. When the guys are done, they hand me a beer so I don’t get too thirsty while hanging out on the stand. When the timer goes ding, I am done.

I had two pairs molded at 360 (whatever measurement units) on the single zone machines. The fit is very comfortable and performance is decent. Not real race boot fit or performance. Had plug boot before, so I know what a real race boot feels like.

The first pair was molded at 300 in Oct 2011. It was the Fischer recommended max when the boots were initially released. The boot was not ski-able. Unless you like skiing in bedroom slippers. Fischer increased the max rec to 360 around early Dec 2011. A remolding at 360 fixed the issue.

My third pair was molding on a two zone machine. 360 for the rear section and 180 for the fore foot area. 180 was too low. Had to remold with 360/200. That was much better. Even though the rear section was molded at “360”, it felt the pressure was much higher than the 360 experienced on the single zone machine. There was a pronounced pinching sensation experienced at the rear ankle area. The spine of the boot was acutely deformed when compared to the older boots. It looked more conforming to the shape of my lower leg. The coot skied great.

After the molding process, I usually have the big toe area bumped out and grind the inside to provide a little more toe room. Very standard process for me.

The molding process is pretty simple and straight forward. The experienced fitters can do it in their sleep.

 

[Noodler]

Thanks everyone. The info has been quite helpful. I've been surprised at how many shops still have the older Fischer machines that only have the single pump/zone for compression. And how many of them that try to convince me that it's all I will need.

Looks like I may need to drive up to Breck to get this done right by someone I'm willing to trust.

 

[KingGrump]

Definitely go with a 2 zone machine.

 

[SilverGaper]

Question for the Fischer boot experts:

Can these boots/process accommodate a last size up 110mm?

 

[KingGrump]

Can these boots/process accommodate a last size up 110mm?

What is your mondo size?

 

[SilverGaper]

What is your mondo size?

27.5

 

[KingGrump]

27.5

If your 27.5 foot measures 110 mm wide, it's a really wide foot.
Fischer claims most of their vacuum boots are 97 last (26.5). That would make them 99 at 27.5. A big stretch.
That said, my son cannot get his trotters into the 130 pro shell with the liner removed. But we were able to get him molded into a pair of the regular 130.

Best bet is bring your feet in and talk to your fitter.

 

[Alexzn]

I had three pair of Vacuum boots in quick succession. Loved the fit, best fitting boot I ever had. What did it in for me and for the shop I use was the cracking. I think people who do well with the Vacuum are people with slim fit who do not need to expand it too much, and most importantly who do not put a lot of stress on the shell getting in. All my fitting was done on the first gen machine. Again, I had zero problems in how they fit or skied, my issue was cracking in the shells after about 35-40 days. Fischer was pretty good about warrantying them out, but at some point my shop just pulled the plug and told me that I needed to be in something else. Anecdotally, I’m not the only person who experienced cracking in the Vacuums.

 

[hbear]

I heard the new boot has a better plastic formulation, you are correct in the old boot had huge issues with cracking.