School me on forward lean

[Vincent_Diesel]

I just got a new pair of boots, and will sit in closet for the next 8 or so months. Forward lean previously at 15 degrees, new pair at 11 degrees, pretty sure both ramp angle the same on both pairs at 4.5 degrees. Using the same skis what should I expect?

Totally overthinking this I know : )

 

[Tricia]

You're not necessarily overthinking it.
It depends on your anatomy.
Example:
Phil likes a boot with more forward lean than I do because I feel like my thighs are burning. I'm in a boot with a bit more upright stance.
@Andy Mink is in the same boot now that Phil was in last year, but his calves are bigger so it pushes him way more forward, so he had to gas pedal his boots.
@Philpug had bird legs and different center of mass, so he liked that boot with the extra dose of forward lean.

 

[trailtrimmer]

Did they come with spoilers? You can get a little adjustment out of them if needed, however I never liked the feel of them.

 

[Vincent_Diesel]

So forward lean is dependent on somebody’s body type and their preference for where they are at proper balance? Do boot fitters account for forward lean?

I just assumed the more forward lean built into the boot the more aggressive your turn initiation is. I tend to get lazy and find myself in the back seat more than I’d like, so will more forward lean help.

No my boots didn’t come with spoilers even if they did my large calves would not allow for it.

 

[Scott Martin]

Start by figuring out how much range of motion you have in your ankles when you dorsiflex (pull your toes up/push you knee towards your toes). You need to have at least 6-8* more ROM than your forward lean to be able to pressure your boots. If you have limited ROM, and set too much lean, you'll never be able to ski correctly. The average male has ~22* of dorsiflexion rom. That means 16* forward lean is the max you want to go (you don't have to max it out, the trend in recent years has been a more centered, upright stance). But a lot of people have significantly less or significantly more.

A friend of mine returned to skiing after 20 years off (he and I raced together as kids). He couldn't figure out why he couldn't press his tips at all, he literally almost gave up. He plays competitive tennis and has rolled his ankles more times than he can remember. As a result his right foot only has 17* dorsiflexion, while his ski boots were set up at 18*. He swapped to a more upright boot and his skiing improved dramatically.

 

[Rod9301]

Start by figuring out how much range of motion you have in your ankles when you dorsiflex (pull your toes up/push you knee towards your toes). You need to have at least 6-8* more ROM than your forward lean to be able to pressure your boots. If you have limited ROM, and set too much lean, you'll never be able to ski correctly. The average male has ~22* of dorsiflexion rom. That means 16* forward lean is the max you want to go (you don't have to max it out, the trend in recent years has been a more centered, upright stance). But a lot of people have significantly less or significantly more.

A friend of mine returned to skiing after 20 years off (he and I raced together as kids). He couldn't figure out why he couldn't press his tips at all, he literally almost gave up. He plays competitive tennis and has rolled his ankles more times than he can remember. As a result his right foot only has 17* dorsiflexion, while his ski boots were set up at 18*. He swapped to a more upright boot and his skiing improved dramatically.

The other thing that limited dorsiflexion does is cause you to lift the heels in the boot.
And no, more forward lean will not help you pressure the tips.
It's actually the other way around.
A more upright, stiff boot will help pressure the tips sooner and easier.

 

[James]

Go ski it and see. Such an upright boot would drive me crazy.
Seems to me the boot board ramp needs to be substracted from the forward lean if you're talking range of motion.
Plus, how is this forward lean measured? Apparently it's not standardized
.
Just because x allegedly skis on the worldcup with y boot doesn't mean it's for you. Likely x doesn't ski what you think they do anyway.

 

[Tricia]

No my boots didn’t come with spoilers even if they did my large calves would not allow for it.

Those calves may be an issue in a boot with more forward lean.
See my comment about @Andy Mink

 

[Scott Martin]

The other thing that limited dorsiflexion does is cause you to lift the heels in the boot.
And no, more forward lean will not help you pressure the tips.
It's actually the other way around.
A more upright, stiff boot will help pressure the tips sooner and easier.

That's what I said... My friend had too much forward lean relative to his ROM to be able to pressure the front of his boot and thus the tips of his skis. He fixed it by getting a more upright boot. It's the relationship between your ROM and the boots forward lean that determines how easy it is to pressure the tips. Limited dorsiflexion will only cause you to lift your heel if your boot has too much lean relative to your ROM (if your ROM is near maxed at rest, you'll lift your heel when you try to pressure the front of your boot since the ankle can't bend anymore). All forward lean does is shift your weight forward (assuming you ski neutral in your boots, which not everyone will). If you ski neutral in your boots, a person with 18* ROM with 12* forward lean will have basically the same ability and ease pressuring the front of their boots as someone with 25* ROM/19* forward lean, the second person will just have a more forward COG (which is neither good nor bad, just depends on ski style).

 

[James]

Tibia length and femur length also play a huge part.
As far as bootfitters knowing fore/aft and fwd lean issues- depends. Very few ime. Not that this stuff is written in stone.
More fwd lean helps pressure the tail as you straighten the lower leg.

 

[Rod9301]

That's what I said... My friend had too much forward lean relative to his ROM to be able to pressure the front of his boot and thus the tips of his skis. He fixed it by getting a more upright boot. It's the relationship between your ROM and the boots forward lean that determines how easy it is to pressure the tips. Limited dorsiflexion will only cause you to lift your heel if your boot has too much lean relative to your ROM (if your ROM is near maxed at rest, you'll lift your heel when you try to pressure the front of your boot since the ankle can't bend anymore). All forward lean does is shift your weight forward (assuming you ski neutral in your boots, which not everyone will). If you ski neutral in your boots, a person with 18* ROM with 12* forward lean will have basically the same ability and ease pressuring the front of their boots as someone with 25* ROM/19* forward lean, the second person will just have a more forward COG (which is neither good nor bad, just depends on ski style).

The second person will not have a more forward cog, they will compensate by sticking their but out

 

[Scott Martin]

The second person will not have a more forward cog, they will compensate by sticking their but out

All forward lean does is shift your weight forward (assuming you ski neutral in your boots, which not everyone will).

Which is why I said that. Like pulling teeth...

 

[James]

Actually, excessive forward lean and ramp will shift your weight back as the body compensates. It's unconscious. It will make you a classic backseat skier.

Again body type, not "skier type" has a lot to do with this.

 

[trailtrimmer]

Actually, excessive forward lean and ramp will shift your weight back as the body compensates. It's unconscious. It will make you a classic backseat skier.

Again body type, not "skier type" has a lot to do with this.

Same reason why heel lifts often result in a fail while moving a binding forward or adding a little lift on the toe works. Counter-intuitive, but heel lifts were a disaster for me.

 

[ARL67]

A couple times this season I changed my forward lean from 15* to 13* and didn't like being more upright either time.
Today as an a experiment, I taped a stack of 6 business cards ( 3mm ? ) on the heel of my bootboard and then also changed my forward lean from 15 to 13, and didn't like that either. After an hour, I put the lean back to 15, but left the business cards in place. The bit of heel lift was not noticeable from a ramp standpoint to me, but my heel was locked it better having some volume reduction in the heel pocket.

Previously I also tried more forward lean at 17*, thinking it will help me stay over my tips better.
But as others have pointed out, this is a false assumption. We naturally want to squat ( butt back ) to balance us out and end up even more back-seat skiing.

I thought golf was stupid about getting bogged down in minutia measurements, but with skiing, a few degrees here or there, and a half or full centimetre here or there, or subtleties of edge angles, can have noticeable effects.

 

[Noodler]

A couple times this season I changed my forward lean from 15* to 13* and didn't like being more upright either time.
Today as an a experiment, I taped a stack of 6 business cards ( 3mm ? ) on the heel of my bootboard and then also changed my forward lean from 15 to 13, and didn't like that either. After an hour, I put the lean back to 15, but left the business cards in place. The bit of heel lift was not noticeable from a ramp standpoint to me, but my heel was locked it better having some volume reduction in the heel pocket.

Previously I also tried more forward lean at 17*, thinking it will help me stay over my tips better.
But as others have pointed out, this is a false assumption. We naturally want to squat ( butt back ) to balance us out and end up even more back-seat skiing.

I thought golf was stupid about getting bogged down in minutia measurements, but with skiing, a few degrees here or there, and a half or full centimetre here or there, or subtleties of edge angles, can have noticeable effects.

Some stance alignment changes, like heel lifts, are inextricably linked to boot fit issues. I have posted previously about finding the optimal vertical position of your foot in the shell to ensure the best "mating" of your heel/ankle/foot to the shape of the shell. IMHO, you should first ensure you have the best shell fit possible and adjust for that before embarking on the stance alignment changes. My experience has been that altering the bootboard and footbed for the best shell fit should not be further "compromised" while seeking better stance alignment.

 

[Vincent_Diesel]

The other thing that limited dorsiflexion does is cause you to lift the heels in the boot.
And no, more forward lean will not help you pressure the tips.
It's actually the other way around.
A more upright, stiff boot will help pressure the tips sooner and easier.

This is actually what I was assuming. I wonder if this is the reason I found myself in the backseat more on steeps with my older boots that had 15 degrees of built-in non-adjustable forward lean.

 

[Vincent_Diesel]

Actually, excessive forward lean and ramp will shift your weight back as the body compensates. It's unconscious. It will make you a classic backseat skier.

Again body type, not "skier type" has a lot to do with this.

Most of my wipeouts as of late is because of me losing the ability to steer. As the slopes get steeper, it feels like my ability to turn gets worse. I wonder if my boots 15 degree forward lean, 4.5 degree ramp angle and larger calves partially contributes to the idea of why I pressure the tails losing steering. I’m also factoring in that I am new to skiing in general.

 

[martyg]

Here's how I rock forward lean with students:

- We do a series of drills to determine where they have the most range of motion.

- It involves width of stance, and amount of flex.

- It usually involves a bit of on-the-fly video analysis with a tablet and video analysis app.

- 100% of students are in a boot that is too upright.

- When they are in that place where they are balanced and have access to the greatest range of motion, I want their cuff to have equal pressure throughout (this is assuming that every other aspect of their boot fit is spot on).

- I carry trail maps and stuff them in between the liner and rear cuff to correct on the hill.

- When we get back for lunch I have close-cell foam and duct tape in my locker. We do a more complete fix.

It is a little trick that I leaned from a former USST member, and national coach for several national teams.

I don't see a reason to "pressure tips". I want my students to be centered, and efficient. Pressuring tips sounds like PSIA-E curriculum from decades ago.

 

[WadeHoliday]

Good info Martyg!

I wanted to add a comment here, as there is quite a bit of push painting extra forward lean and heel lifts as negatives. While I agree this can be, I find what Martyg just said more accurate, maybe not 100%, but I think many skiers are in too upright boots. I also think it's not about being forward/ back as much, but I agree w/ what Marty said, it's about staying balanced through their range of motion.

For me personally, I tweaked my boots the first month of this season and added a bit more heel lift and spoiler, it wasn't about being back, but with more lean, I can get the inside ski (little toe edge) to work more symmetrically and actively. I'm skiing my fx 105 a lot, and it likes to be skied just in front of my heel, but I have no problem finding that more aft spot from this position, it's just a bit more flexed and give me better balance through the full range, on both inside and outside skis.

I think where you ski has some bearing here as well, for skiing 3 d terrain, mostly steeper, I think this tweak helps more than it would in a race course.

Cheers!
W