Running down hill as it relates to skiing

[Fishbowl]

Breakthroughs in sports are often achieved through technique, or tactics, but sometimes they are conceptual.

In this thread, I will be discussing how my season of hiking mountain ranges inspired thoughts about skiing.

I spend the off season hiking the mountain ranges around Phoenix. The trails can be pretty tough with loose rocks, gravel, steep grades and uneven surfaces. The uphill hikes are hard work, but relatively safe. Downhill, however can be somewhat treacherous with loose footing. Coming off a martial arts career that had left me with multiple ankle and knee surgeries, I was understandably worried about re-injury. I would come down the trails very slowly and carefully, sitting back on my heels and side stepping down the steeper grades. Mt feet would often slide out and I would have to either sit down, or put a hand down to save myself. It was slow hard work, but relatively safe with little chance of major injury.

One day, whilst taking a break at the side of the trail, two ladies passed me on the way down. To my amazement, they were running down the hill with grace and ease. Instead of fighting gravity, they embraced it, allowing themselves to be pulled down the hill. Their weight forwards, they controlled their descent by leaping from side to side on the rocks. Most of all, they looked effortless. They flowed.

I sat there for a long time considering what I had just seen. The risk of injury seemed massive. Falling at speed on a rocky downhill trail could have dire consequences, but the risk of falling also seemed much less than what I had been doing. Plus, there were keeping their joints pointed downhill, putting much less strain on them than my sideways butt sliding technique.

There are many better ways to do things, but sometimes it takes a leap of faith to put it in motion. I strapped on my backpack, tightened up my boots and took that leap. The first ten yards were very uncertain, feeling that the speed could get away from me. But then I relaxed and got in a rhythm, leaping from side to side to control my descent. It became easy, effortless and fun. I realized that I was now embracing gravity instead of fighting it, and despite the increase in speed, I was safer from injury and in more control. Instead of skidding on my heels, I felt sure footed with my weight over the balls of my feet.

This analogy has carried over to my skiing, Back seat and sideways may feel like a safe way to get down the hill, but forwards and downhill is more controlled, and more fun. You just have to take that leap of faith.

 

[LiquidFeet]

You got you some beautiful sunny rocks there, @Fishbowl. Thanks for starting this thread.

Here are some pics of the rocky downhills on the trails I run. I'm no elite runner - I go stupid-slow. But just as you describe above I keep my CoM ahead of my feet so that there's no braking going on. The goal is FLOW with no bracing impact (saves knees and feels good). Achieving this flow can be psychologically challenging, given the obstacles on these New England trails. I love this.

I'm constantly working on keeping feet behind my CoM, and moving downhill faster than thinking.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Two days ago those trails looked like this, below. It took me a lot of work and a long time to learn to look ahead and not down at my feet while running this type of terrain, especially when the leaves are this dense.

Running downhill is very much like skiing. On this terrain, there is dirt between the rocks. Look between the rocks, not at them, and foot plant between the rocks, not on them. Dirt is level; these granite boulders are not flat on top. And stay ahead of those feet.

 

[cantunamunch]

Running downhill is very much like skiing. On this terrain, there is dirt between the rocks. Look between the rocks, not at them, and foot plant between the rocks, not on them. Dirt is level; these granite boulders are not flat on top. And stay ahead of those feet.

Get @LaurelHillCraze to post some of the trail maintenance pics from Laurel Mountain. That place is awesome for downhill running.

 

[coskigirl]

I've often thought that being a skier makes downhill running feel more natural to me than it does for some others. The feeling of keeping that center of mass forward isn't as disconcerting for me as it is my non-skiing friends. In a lot of ways trail running is like moguls.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I've often thought that being a skier makes downhill running feel more natural to me than it does for some others. The feeling of keeping that center of mass forward isn't as disconcerting for me as it is my non-skiing friends. In a lot of ways trail running is like moguls.

Yes, I think this too. Actually, it was skiing that clued me into keeping my feet farther back when running the downhills.

 

[Laurel Hill Crazie]

Get @LaurelHillCraze to post some of the trail maintenance pics from Laurel Mountain. That place is awesome for downhill running.

I'm not sure what pictures you would like to see. The most recent are from novice and intermediate trails. Last season we cleaned up an old glade. I showed you some other glades while hiking several years back but we have not been able to clean those as of yet.

 

[skix]

One day, whilst taking a break at the side of the trail, two ladies passed me on the way down. To my amazement, they were running down the hill with grace and ease. Instead of fighting gravity, they embraced it, allowing themselves to be pulled down the hill. Their weight forwards, they controlled their descent by leaping from side to side on the rocks. Most of all, they looked effortless. They flowed.

This analogy has carried over to my skiing, Back seat and sideways may feel like a safe way to get down the hill, but forwards and downhill is more controlled, and more fun. You just have to take that leap of faith.

I came at this from the other direction. I backpacked for a couple decades before ever skiing. But I agree there's a similarity that's useful. Just like in skiing you've got to change the angle of your body to match the slope instead of hanging back upright at an acute angle relative to the uphill slope. You will beat your knees and feet up if every step tries to arrest the momentum of the mass of your body and backpack.

Back as far as at least the 80s the concept of flowing downhill with the intent to have less braking and less impact was definitely known. I'd heard of it and used it myself. There's a further application of this that also got talked about back then. Talus running. I did some of this as well and got called a fool a couple times as a result by people who saw it. One place I did this multiple times was The Boulderfield on Long's Peak. The idea is that as you descend boulders you just redirect your mass and lightly touch each boulder as you descend with a minimum of braking. As much as is possible (and "safe") you allow your momentum to continue downhill without halting it at each step or leap.

Dug up some references to this ... apparently Doug Robinson was the pioneer:

http://movingoverstone.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/RUNNING-TALUS.pdf​

http://tohatchacrow.blogspot.com/2013/08/running-talus-lost-art-of-boulder.html​

http://sustainableplay.com/running-talus-profile-of-doug-robinson-climbing-magazine/​

https://www.amazon.com/RUNNING-MOVING-CLIMBING-ROBINSON-MOUNTAIN/dp/B01G2QGU4K​

Sidenote: I did this in my 20s. I look back now and realize I could have been broken in half in a fall. NOT recommending this to anyone. The upside though is it is exhilarating.

Quote from Doug Robinson:

To the new talus runner, a boulderfield will seem at first to be a sea of holes, which must be avoided by means of a deliberate technique. Just walking over the field will be a handful: need I say be careful? Literally running is, after all, the advanced course.

There are but two essentials, friction and balance — the staying power of a foot resting on the rock, and the dynamic of moving the body to the next foothold. The motion is like walking, of course, only more broken and much more studied. This combination of balance and friction is the basis of all climbing. The application of these two essentials will be added to, refined, extrapolated; both will be pushed to unexpected limits, in awkward and improbable combinations. But the basic requirement, friction and balance working in harmony, is always there.

Moving over the talus, we begin to see that coordinating the step from one point of balance to the next implies another quality rhythm. A good dancer becomes a good climber; the mere weight lifter is helpless. We build up momentum. Each step becomes less of a stance, more of a brief way station to the next step. The dynamic overcomes the static.​

Lot's of concepts in that bit that are very familiar to skiing.

Long's Peak Boulderfield circa 1980s:

Edited to add: Already long post but wanted to add this Doug Robinson comment:

“What caught my attention is how well talus running actually worked. You could run through it and not get hurt as long as you were mindful of the present moment. You get the same kinesthetic freedom in talus running as you find in say, backcountry skiing. Little by little you approach the limitations of your nervous system; once you get it, it’s like the freedom of flight.”​

 

[LiquidFeet]

No dirt between those rocks! What are the yellow and light blue things in the middle ground?

I....The idea is that as you descend boulders you just redirect your mass and lightly touch each boulder as you descend with a minimum of braking. As much as is possible (and "safe") you allow your momentum to continue downhill without halting it at each step or leap.... You will beat your knees and feet up if every step tries to arrest the momentum of the mass of your body and backpack..... Sidenote: I did this in my 20s. I look back now and realize I could have been broken in half in a fall. NOT recommending this to anyone. The upside though is it is exhilarating....
Quote from Doug Robinson:....We build up momentum. Each step becomes less of a stance, more of a brief way station to the next step. The dynamic overcomes the static.

I want to respond to several points in this post.

1. "You will beat your knees and feet up"
Some skiers are tempted to brace at the end of the turn against momentum. Yes, that messes with the knees, and also with the quads. But IME the impact sustained by a braking/bracing skier doesn't deliver the same jolt as a downhill runner landing on a foot that's planted out in front downhill of the body. Figuring out how to plant that foot "under" you, which feels like "behind you" since everything's tilted, instead of out in front, is key to reducing the impact to the knees when running downhill. It's the biggie. Pulling/holding the feet back in skiing accomplishes much the same thing. Both activities have an increased sense of flow and exhilaration when those feet are "back." In skiing there's an additional gain: it helps increase control of line and speed through better grip. Grip is a given on dry land.

2. "I could have broken in half in a fall"
For those interested in avoiding breaking their bodies while running on rocky trails, I'd suggest wearing knee and wrist guards, the kind inline skaters wear. I'm old and clumsy and beyond worrying how I look on the trail, so I wear these. It only takes one fall stubbing my toe and slamming my knee onto a granite boulder to destroy my ski season. Looking cavalier on the trail isn't worth it.

3. "A way station to the next step"
When there are obstacles to be navigated, getting each step to be a brief way station to the next step involves an additional kind of training. It's a see-the-line-ahead thing, and a build-up of experience of where-to-land-the-foot thing. One needs to be able to plant the foot while not looking down, and the farther ahead one looks, the more one feels time slowing down. Look ahead, see the line, trust the feet to land in the right spots that you just looked at a second ago. Avoid second guessing yourself; let decisive line choice be your guide. Build up trust in your feet. I think of having a co-pilot in my head that places my feet, while I act as the navigator, running my eyes along the path ahead. This can be a focus for a whole run, for run after run.

4. "Lightly touch each boulder"
Whether running downhill on or between rocks or on smooth dirt, the light touch happens when you let momentum determine your speed. This is a trainable skill. It involves paying attention to where beneath your body you put that foot, and how far back behind your body it is when you lift it. So it's a proprioception thing at first, paying attention to the location of the initial footplant and the "body" above it, then where the lift happens relative to the body above. One can feel the flow grow when that footplant and liftoff happen farther and farther back behind the body. It's counterintuitive, just like in skiing; keeping your body ahead of your feet yields more control, more lightness on the skis, more flow, more everything good.

5. All downhill running doesn't involve obstacles. But running a talus field or any kind of obstacle-filled trail is similar to skiing bumps. I consider it bump training.


Just rambling. I love the running.

 

[skix]

What are the yellow and light blue things in the middle ground?

The little blue dot on the left is my tent. Got a photo somewhere ... surreal and beautiful place to spend the night.

Another view of the boulderfield from higher ...

 

[dbostedo]

^^^^
How the heck do you find a good spot to pitch a tent in that? Doesn't look like there's a flat spot to be found.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I thought those colorful dots were the size of grapefruits. I didn't realize some of the boulders are gigantic.
In NH we have Mt. Washington. It's affectionately called the Rock Pile. These two are on the "trail."

In winter, the rocks disappear. That's Tuckerman Ravine over on the left.

 

[cantunamunch]

^^^^
How the heck do you find a good spot to pitch a tent in that? Doesn't look like there's a flat spot to be found.

Whenever you feel like applying the principles shown here on the Billy Goat; backside of Sugarloaf or downhill from the fort at Harpers Ferry, just give a shout.

If you want to do it as uphill/downhill intervals, the grass behind the National Cathedral is fantastic.

 

[dbostedo]

Whenever you feel like applying the principles shown here on the Billy Goat; backside of Sugarloaf or downhill from the fort at Harpers Ferry, just give a shout.

If you want to do it as uphill/downhill intervals, the grass behind the National Cathedral is fantastic.

Wait, I was talking about flat spots for camping... not running.

I've run parts of Billy Goat... though a long time ago. I've only walked around Harper's Ferry. I get the principles in the thread, but was referencing the camping in a boulder field.

 

[cantunamunch]

I get the principles in the thread, but was referencing the camping in a boulder field.

I know, but if you're here it must mean you were interested, so. It's OK, you can admit it

 

[LiquidFeet]

Does anyone have things to say about running on smooth downhills - as it relates to skiing - without referencing rocks as a part of the run?

 

[tromano]

Does anyone have things to say about running on smooth downhills - as it relates to skiing - without referencing rocks as a part of the run?

No significant difference in technique between smooth hard pack downhills and rocks. In truth a having some rocks makes it easier, you can use them the same way you use moguls for skiing to control speed. Smooth hard pack down hills, its more analogous to a steep groomer. It seems easier, and you can go where you want, but you get going a lot faster. The steep smooth trails are usually a bit washed out and the pebbles accumulate towards when the slope starts to level out which is actually harder to deal with I think than a rocky trail.

 

[karlo]

Does anyone have things to say about running on smooth downhills - as it relates to skiing - without referencing rocks as a part of the run?

If it weren’t the guests’ or parents’ expectations to be on skis, I’d spend a day or more on dryland training. Things like what a proper transition is would be far easier to teach and convey on something like a smooth downhill, and not necessarily a slippery, pebbly one, though it would be a good progression.

 

[cantunamunch]

Does anyone have things to say about running on smooth downhills - as it relates to skiing - without referencing rocks as a part of the run?

Use 2 surgeons knots over top the instep and cut your toenails . Slow down the set down as much as you can; rushed set down is a twisted ankle waiting to happen.

 

[Fishbowl]

Does anyone have things to say about running on smooth downhills - as it relates to skiing - without referencing rocks as a part of the run?

On both groomers and smooth downhills, I seem to lack the visual cues that trigger my turns, and therefore pick up a lot of unwanted speed.. I try to focus on turning rhythmically, or keeping inside an imaginary corridor.