Ruminations on skiing w/a group -- esp. men

[Plai]

Perhaps @firebanex meant they are so easy to spot with their Asian fit goggles or what not.
Pic was posted in another thread previously.

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I cringed too when I read that. But then I remembered, (of course in the distant past), how often I would looked at a bunch of clueless Asians getting off the bus and think "Fresh Air Fund." We all have our prejudices. I am no exception. Although most of us have learn not to say it out loud.
New thread - "Sh*t we used to say but can't anymore."

Now, I see the same bus load of clueless Asians and think "a step in the right direction." We all can grow and change. .

Couple of things I learned over 40 years of skiing. I AM the Asian tourist wherever I go.
On the flip side. A local is someone who hasn't gotten his sh*t together to travel.

It's not the difficulty in spotting the "gaper" in any/all of us. It's the expression of the sentiment, and not attributing it experience/training/ability or personality. That said, I totally agree with you about curbing my own prejudices. It's something we all have to deal with. I discriminate against "stupidity" all the time. [Unfortunately, often times it's against myself. ;-]

I vote to move this thread back on track and close the "race" discussion. My post was hopefully well considered and made the point. [No, this is not an attempt to get in the last word. It's an attempt to keep things civil.]

 

[kimmyt]

In an effort to move it back on track:

I ski with groups and I please only myself. You know that you are never responsibile for anyone's else's happiness or level of fun. You provide options and people choose whether to do them and whether to be happy or have fun or not.

Sadly, whether its a function of my personality or a function of my gender (I believe that may have a strong influence here) I can't get rid of that feeling of responsibility for other's experiences. I've also found that if someone is skiing with a person who has more skill then the less experienced person tends to just let themselves be chauffered around instead of actively involving themself in the experience. I find it emotionally exhausting to basically be an unpaid guide, it would be fine if the person helped a bit by saying 'oh that run looks fun lets go over there' or something on the lift but oftentimes its more like 'ok where are we going next?'. So, thats why I don't really volunteer to meet up with people or show people around too often. I have to be in the right headspace!

 

[Nancy Hummel]

In an effort to move it back on track:



Sadly, whether its a function of my personality or a function of my gender (I believe that may have a strong influence here) I can't get rid of that feeling of responsibility for other's experiences. I've also found that if someone is skiing with a person who has more skill then the less experienced person tends to just let themselves be chauffered around instead of actively involving themself in the experience. I find it emotionally exhausting to basically be an unpaid guide, it would be fine if the person helped a bit by saying 'oh that run looks fun lets go over there' or something on the lift but oftentimes its more like 'ok where are we going next?'. So, thats why I don't really volunteer to meet up with people or show people around too often. I have to be in the right headspace!

I agree with you. I also get limited time to ski and am very selfish about my ski time. My husband and I ski together because we have similar styles. We like to ski with @Mike King as well but that is a small, limited group.

 

[GinBuck]

Luckily, we have a group of like minded old friends that have skied together for many years so we naturally break into pods of different tastes.

What has changed is now we have the kids of the old friends aged 11 to 19 that have changed the dynamic dramatically for the better. I noticed all of the Uncles wanted to show the kids everything there is to skiing so we did things never thought of--trees, huckin', and even the forbidden out-of-bounds (not really, a better word these days is off-piste).

There certainly is bravado. How can one enter Stovokor without it? On the other hand, there is no shame in bailing and meeting at the lift.

I guess what I am getting at is belief in a quote I think came from Yvon Chouinard (or similar) something like "pick your partners, then your destination". If there is a newcomer to the group that is impolite or dangerous, he can ride the lifts alone.

 

[NZRob]

Worst situation is a group of rowdy young adult males acquaintances with only novice and intermediate skills that have not previously skied together out at a ski resort with much advanced terrain above any of their abilities. Like a day with a company work group or college group coming in on a ski bus. The first behavior one can expect when they ski down as a group on slopes is little being spoken when they arrive back at lifts but considerable non-verbal emotions and stares. Very quickly there will be a vibe of not being the last to return to liftlines with grinning condescending looks to those that arrive late regardless of how poorly any of them look skiing back down to lifts. Considerable laughing at any that fall, especially if a ski pops off. By late morning one can expect there will be a challenging call to go up on some intimidating advanced lift and pity the poor guy that declines.

You could insert any sport or pastime in this analogy, the common thread being "young adult males". As many of us know from our own experience traversing that time in life, it isn't exactly a time when you're making the best decisions and thinking about outcomes!

 

[firebanex]

Derailing statement: Perhaps I should have said any time a certain tour group company in matching long red puff coats shows up, I guarantee that at least a quarter of the group will need courtesy rides before the end of the day. I apologize if my wording offended anyone, I did not mean for it to come across as such.

@elemmac Multiple times a season, usually it's worst in March when the days are long and the weather is nice. It happened most recently on this past Sunday, found three at one of the "secret" benches in the woods and they tried to tell me that we were still open and the sun was still up. It was sweep and I had my helmet light on.. definitely not still day light out.

Back on topic. I actually still don't have much to contribute to the group dynamic because after reading all of this I have realized that I don't know how to ski like a normal person. Going back to the original post and thinking quite a bit on this topic because I don't ski with a group besides family or patrollers. I am uncomfortable with skiing with groups that I am not really familiar with. While I know that I am a great skier and can honestly handle everything on any mountain in some fashion, I like to take things on my own terms which usually involves and scouting run with lots of stops to evaluate lines before going through it at normal speed. On the rare occasion I have skied with others, I never get the chance to do a scout run and it makes me uncomfortable. Of course I didn't realize this until I spent quite a bit of time thinking about it today.

 

[markojp]

This statement implies that being Asian is the cause of the need for help, which I doubt is your intent. The others in your list have personality traits, experience/training gaps that have yet to be filled. While it may not be as funny, it would help me if you could couch it better. FWIW... I don't doubt your observational skills. [Sorry, you touched a sore point with me I guess.]

I've seen this with a different twist in Japan before anyone from outside of Japan thought there was both great skiing and some highly skilled individuals on the hill. A couple times it was pre-invasion Aussies who seems to believe the stereotypes their fathers and grandfathers taught them. They'd show up all puffed up and a bit arrogant. First run, and all the locals were waiting for them. Their attitude changed quickly. Thankfully they 'self-humbled'.

I've also seen old film of Paul Parker and Yvon Chouinard telemarking with a couple of friends on the hirafu side of Niseko on a huge day before lifts were installed (Hanazono 2, Strawberry Fields). Paul went on to write his telemark book and sort of slammed the Japanese. I'll bet he'd be embarrassed to see the footage.

 

[markojp]

I tend to be more and more conservative when skiing now especially within groups. I try not to push anyone past their comfort zone/limits, I try my best to explain the options and will err to to the side of caution. If they choose to go into the terrain it is their choice.

When we skied Whistler in milk bottle conditions, we had to trust the leaders and IMHO, they could have not done a better job taking us where they did.

Was that the afternoon glacier lap?

 

[Bolder]

I competed in other sports and walks of life, I liked it, it was rewarding at times, but that's not what skiing's about for me. What makes skiing joyful for me are the sensations, environment and vibe. When I was younger I surfed, a lot of surfers understand that and in a lot of places it was the prevailing attitude. Ski buds of mine are for the most part like this too, even with powder day lines. I'll ski with anyone for a bit but I've made my exits. Nothing personal, it's fine to be in it for different things.

Yep, this is it for me. I like skiing with a couple of people, maybe my kids or my brother. Same for my surfing or cycling partners. I can't imagine why I'd want to make anyone feel bad by egging them into the discomfort zone.

 

[Philpug]

Was that the afternoon glacier lap?

I think it was almost very lap up and over Spanky's.

 

[fatbob]

Groups are rarely about the group, they are about how

-selfish
-self-aware
-self sacrificing
- self important

individuals in the group are.


In a good group, members set aside their own ego and wants/needs and go with the flow of what the leader does. And groups always need a leader of sorts whether it is explicit or implicit otherwise everything becomes a frustrating debate or void of ideas. And a good leader will be doing all sorts of things whether overt or not to keep the group cohesive and happy, sometimes they might lead a pitch, other times sweep, sometimes offer quiet and private encouragement to someone, other times mock themselves for screwing something up. And the hardest bit might sometimes be saying "you know what I think this will work best if we split" or "i'm going to take a break, feel free to do whatever you want".

 

[dbostedo]

Was that the afternoon glacier lap?

There was an afternoon glacier lap for the intermediate group I was in that got a little dicey, fog-wise (as none of us except our guide had been there before)... and yes, she did a great job keeping everyone close and getting us all out the traverse and then below the fog where it cleared up.

 

[bbinder]

Showing a group of people around on a mountain can be fraught with hazards. Most of the time I have done this in the past, I had some familiarity with the skill set of the people I was skiing with. In these instances, I was able to choose routes that everyone would enjoy. Marcia trusts me enough (I know, big mistake!) so that if I tell her she can handle an unfamiliar trail she will follow me down it. There was one time I was showing a group around a mountain that I failed miserably. I knew most, but not all, of the skiers in the group. I asked if everyone could handle “x” type of terrain, but did not give a lot of detail. The group said yes, so I led them off on a long traverse. Unfortunately, one of the people in the group was not comfortable on long traverses and by the time I realized this it was too late. This person took a long time to get down the trail and then stopped skiing for the day. Yeah, you could say that the people in the group share responsibility, but I feel that it was my failure to not be sure that everyone understood what we were getting into. Perhaps this person was not going to ski much that day anyway, but I learned an important lesson.

 

[HDSkiing]

I’ve been both sides of this. First as a younger adolescent when goin Mach 5 all the time with my friends, most of which were on a ski team, not that that made us responsible or even in control, we were always on the edge, sometimes over it. Getting flagged by the Ski Patrol was something we bragged about.

Now later in life working full time for a ski school I ski with a lot of colleagues, either free skiing or clinicing. We have a few rules, no one passes and we give each other room. We always wait at the bottom or the lift. It works well, we Dont end up side by side on a crowded bump run or need to worry about squeezing by. If you want to go super fast go first, or last.

One of the great things with skiing with professionals, at least when free skiing, is no one much cares what the other guy is doing, there is no competition and egos seldom surface, because no one cares how fast or awesome you are, we are just making turns, having fun and enjoying the mountain.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....
One of the great things with skiing with professionals, at least when free skiing, is no one much cares what the other guy is doing, there is no competition and egos seldom surface, because no one cares, we are just making turns, having fun and enjoying the mountain.

Are you saying that skiing with a bunch of ski instructors is inherently non-competitive?

 

[HDSkiing]

Are you saying that skiing with a bunch of ski instructors is inherently non-competitive?

Lol that does sound like an oxymoron. But when we are out free skiing and not wanting to think about judging another persons turns, yeah, it mostly is, at least with the group I hang out with.

 

[Philpug]

Marcia trusts me enough (I know, big mistake!)....

And you say you are not a salesman.

 

[Monique]

Are you saying that skiing with a bunch of ski instructors is inherently non-competitive?

Probably depends on the individuals, like everything else.

 

[Tricia]

As you can imagine, I ski in groups frequently. Most of the time it goes well but we have the occasional snafu.
The snafu(s) usually happen when there is a misunderstanding of one (or more than one) person's mental game.
We had an snafu happen at a recent gathering when someone who knows the mountain really well was showing a rather large group around. someone buzzed by the group leader who happens to have issues with skiers skiing to close (because of a history of being hit). The leader ended u peeling off and telling us go to on.

The only real issue I see with skiing in groups:

• How large the group is
• Basic understanding of the people in the group(skill and mental game)
• Basic skiing courtesy

 

[Monique]

The snafu(s) usually happen when there is a misunderstanding of one (or more than one) person's mental game.

+1

On Saturday, I skied with a woman who definitely had the skills. She got super cold after a while and peeled off. She admitted she'd had a really shitty week and just needed to get off the mountain.

I've been that woman . Sometimes I even admit it.