- Joined
- Nov 12, 2015
- Posts
- 1,863
Bought mine when I joined PSIA in 1969, after I had foresaken my painfully stiff (when cold) Langes for Rosemonts.
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Rocking Horse (tip/waist/tail)
- Thread starter LiquidFeet
- Start date
Speaking for the CSIA system... it didn't rate any mention in L1 and L2 when I did them in 2017. Nor was it prominent in a L3 prep course in 2018 - of course I may have missed it as there were various groups working with different instructors (or I may have just plain not being paying attention) but it clearly wasn't something regularly discussed. Largely I feel that was mostly because the instructors were working to get everybody off the front of their skis throughout the turn and closer to a central balance point. Need to get the gross stuff corrected before working with subtleties. Go to any hill and I'm willing to bet you'll see plenty of people (up to and including many L2 instructors) who are sliding their ski tails on exit because they are so far forward that the balance point is 1/2 way to the tips. This was pointed out to maybe 2/3 of our group (me included) in the 1st video critique of our skiing.
To a certain extent we were then left to work things out for ourselves. A fair few reminders "back, back, much further back back..." but we were expected to offer a critique on our own skiing in vid reviews. Fair enough - physician, diagnose thyself. (They were plenty willing to dive in if we got stuck. Or prematurely claimed improvement.) Of course if we keep correcting a movement pattern in one direction sooner or later it's going to go too far. And, sure enough - "now you are too far back, forward a little".
It probably pays not to get too complacent - one of our instructors mentioned that in over 25 years as an instructor he could only recall being perfectly balanced throughout one turn. Is that being hyper-critical? Maybe - then again it's the sort of thinking required to make the Western Canada Interski team.
Thread Starter
TS
Thank you, geepers. That's exactly the kind of information I'm looking for in this thread.
From Ron Kipps "Alpine Skiing"
“To carve the ski, we need to start with the front of the ski. Moving weight to the ball of the feet will accomplish this (figure 11.7). From this position, the skier can rotate and tip the ski to start the turn as needed. As the turn develops into the fall line, the skier will shift her weight rearward to the center of the foot and finish on the heel and arch. At no time was the skier ever using the high, stiff back of the ski boot. This feature of the ski boot is for emergency use only. The weight of the skier is always going through the bottom of the boot.”
Excerpt From: Ronald Kipp. “Alpine Skiing.” iBooks. https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/alpine-skiing/id529995814?mt=11
“To carve the ski, we need to start with the front of the ski. Moving weight to the ball of the feet will accomplish this (figure 11.7). From this position, the skier can rotate and tip the ski to start the turn as needed. As the turn develops into the fall line, the skier will shift her weight rearward to the center of the foot and finish on the heel and arch. At no time was the skier ever using the high, stiff back of the ski boot. This feature of the ski boot is for emergency use only. The weight of the skier is always going through the bottom of the boot.”
Excerpt From: Ronald Kipp. “Alpine Skiing.” iBooks. https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/alpine-skiing/id529995814?mt=11
Thread Starter
TS
Even though the red spot (pressure) is at the ball of the feet at top of the turn. What is usually the attitude of the ankle at the top of the turn?
Thread Starter
TS
Assuming a round turn as in Ron Kipp's graphic, the top of the turn is when the skis are light. The shin is not going to be pressing hard into the tongue at that point, no matter where the underfoot pressure is.
Wrench into the works:
What about all those turns where the skier drops into the turn to get upside down on the hill, is aft over the skis momentarily but forward in the turn, and the skis catch up at the fall line. Is BoF pressure still in force at the top of that turn?
Wrench into the works:
What about all those turns where the skier drops into the turn to get upside down on the hill, is aft over the skis momentarily but forward in the turn, and the skis catch up at the fall line. Is BoF pressure still in force at the top of that turn?
In CSIA L2 we learnt how to use light contact between shin and boot front as a reference point, with lifting of the toes to ensure weight remained centered at the back of the foot arch, just in front of the arch of the heel. That certainly works well and makes for easy initial rotation of the skis in what CSIA term intermediate parallels.
More recently an L4 told us that he maintains light shin contact all the time as a reference, and lifts the outside toes of each foot - bigger toes lifted on the foot of the inside ski, smaller toes lifted on the foot of the outside ski. (I'm still working on that one.
)As I understand it these are not universal in CSIA however it may get more widespread as both those instructors are on the current Western Canada Interski team.
Here's Jonathan Ballou talking about CoP under the heel in transition. He refers to it as "the place of power".
He also talks about keeping shin contact by using the tibialis anterior to get forward pressure while the weight is thru the heel.
Note, this is thru transition. He defines transition as the place where pressure is transferred from the old outside ski to the new outside prior to edge change.
It's an interesting podcast.
https://soundcloud.com/snowpros/first-chair-how-to-take-your-skiing-from-good-to-awesome-part-2
He also talks about keeping shin contact by using the tibialis anterior to get forward pressure while the weight is thru the heel.
Note, this is thru transition. He defines transition as the place where pressure is transferred from the old outside ski to the new outside prior to edge change.
It's an interesting podcast.
https://soundcloud.com/snowpros/first-chair-how-to-take-your-skiing-from-good-to-awesome-part-2
Yes, but we only need that “place of power” in turn phase 3 when the turn forces are greatest and stability is key. In turn phase one, however, mobility is key as we need to get that ski out from under our CoM and where that "place of power" does not offer the lateral mobility to get the skis tipped high and quick into turn phase one.
I’m reading a divide in the conception of ankle tipping. Ankle tipping inside the boot is not used to “directly” set the angle status of the base of the ski. Ankle “tipping” is not ski “tipping”. The few degrees of ankle flexion we may get “inside” a well fitting boot with inversion and eversion is to create leverage, or a “tension”, between cuff and sole in the lateral plane, that we then use to stabilize the ankle to then provide strong and accurate tipping of the ski with a fully activated ankle. This is how the ankle is ultimately able to leverage the boot and have so much power with which to initiate and control a turn. And, of course, the geometric “compliance” to high tipping is going to be served throughout the entire skeleton as does rotary.
And remember, as you stand there tweaking your ankles, that this inversion/eversion is highly muted the further back sole pressure becomes and why the timing for this mobility is in phase one. At the end of the turn, phase 3, we are more settled towards the back of the boot where, while the lateral mobility for eversion and inversion is gone, the ankle then becomes laterally stabilized and a stability that is at its highest along with the forces in the turn that are also at their highest. This is why it can help to explain technique in turn phases where our biomechanics goes through certain changes of status regarding the mutual exclusivity of the accessibility of mobility and stability within the kinetic chain.
Something to keep in mind regarding the migration of pressure from ball to heel and tip to tail is that, because the BoS takes a route farther than the CoM, but is attached to the CoM, it is, therefore, “circling” around the CoM and especially so in short radius carved turns. Imagine the line, or vector, between the CoM and the BoS as a swinging stick. Allowing the outside foot to push forward of the CoM, “below the knee” and through the turn is also part of the act of keeping our CoM at its most balanced, advantageous and leverage inducing position over the BoS. We can “start” forward in a short swing or carved turn but we just can’t “stay” forward and continue to manage the correct/ideal pressure over the ski. Conversely, if you want to ride just one spot over the sole, it has to start and stay more aft. That vector or line between the CoM and BoS needs to be stacked over and aligned with the main upward vector of the GFR produced by the turn.
We can also look at the fore to aft migration of pressure under the sole of the foot as upward returning ground force reaction that is produced by tipping a ski with a pronounced shovel and a pronounced tail. Think of ground force reaction as an impulse that passes through the foot from ball to heel.
I’m reading a divide in the conception of ankle tipping. Ankle tipping inside the boot is not used to “directly” set the angle status of the base of the ski. Ankle “tipping” is not ski “tipping”. The few degrees of ankle flexion we may get “inside” a well fitting boot with inversion and eversion is to create leverage, or a “tension”, between cuff and sole in the lateral plane, that we then use to stabilize the ankle to then provide strong and accurate tipping of the ski with a fully activated ankle. This is how the ankle is ultimately able to leverage the boot and have so much power with which to initiate and control a turn. And, of course, the geometric “compliance” to high tipping is going to be served throughout the entire skeleton as does rotary.
And remember, as you stand there tweaking your ankles, that this inversion/eversion is highly muted the further back sole pressure becomes and why the timing for this mobility is in phase one. At the end of the turn, phase 3, we are more settled towards the back of the boot where, while the lateral mobility for eversion and inversion is gone, the ankle then becomes laterally stabilized and a stability that is at its highest along with the forces in the turn that are also at their highest. This is why it can help to explain technique in turn phases where our biomechanics goes through certain changes of status regarding the mutual exclusivity of the accessibility of mobility and stability within the kinetic chain.
Something to keep in mind regarding the migration of pressure from ball to heel and tip to tail is that, because the BoS takes a route farther than the CoM, but is attached to the CoM, it is, therefore, “circling” around the CoM and especially so in short radius carved turns. Imagine the line, or vector, between the CoM and the BoS as a swinging stick. Allowing the outside foot to push forward of the CoM, “below the knee” and through the turn is also part of the act of keeping our CoM at its most balanced, advantageous and leverage inducing position over the BoS. We can “start” forward in a short swing or carved turn but we just can’t “stay” forward and continue to manage the correct/ideal pressure over the ski. Conversely, if you want to ride just one spot over the sole, it has to start and stay more aft. That vector or line between the CoM and BoS needs to be stacked over and aligned with the main upward vector of the GFR produced by the turn.
We can also look at the fore to aft migration of pressure under the sole of the foot as upward returning ground force reaction that is produced by tipping a ski with a pronounced shovel and a pronounced tail. Think of ground force reaction as an impulse that passes through the foot from ball to heel.
Fed up. "Is this all you can think of? Over and over, all f-ing day? What about something with some variety, eh mate? A little badminton or tennis, perhaps. Or just propping me up in front of that nice fireplace in the lodge. I'd settle for that, yes I would!"
Sounds like we need to take your ankles out back for an attitude adjustment session.
We usually do knees, but for you, we’ll adjust the ankles instead.
Thread Starter
TS
Oh that is SO GOOD.
Where did you find it?
Where did you find it?
That's awesome! Fun.
So . . . . He moves his CoM forward (using his ankle, knee and hip joints) over skis that aren't moving. Ya know . . . he leans forward! Lol! Then he pulls his feet forward to get them back under his pre-positioned CoM (well actually he overdoes it for the fun video and pulls his feet ahead of his CoM).This is reminiscent of the old center of mass movement!!! Easy peasy way to get the CoM to move forward relative to the BoS! Use our joints Flex and extend them as appropriate. Looks like he is closing his ankles a bit and opening his knees and hips. I would say he's not starting "down low". Instead, he unbends his knees and the hip opens a bit. Then because his CoM is moving forward he can use his weight to flex his ankles a little bit.
Anyway - this is just a fun video, but @Steve - if you could get this much effective fore-aft movement in this fashion, would you still feel the need to add tension to your TA?
I sooo wish there was a facebook like "love" button for this one!
(My dad had a pair... amazing contraptions!)
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2015
- Posts
- 2,338
I'm sure he's using all of his muscles.
Yep, same as what we played with in New Zealand:
"· Use the whole of the outside ski through the turn: Engage "binding to tip" to start; "toepiece to heelpiece" in the fall line; "binding to tail" to end."
Like the man said, you paid for the whole ski; may as well use it!
"· Use the whole of the outside ski through the turn: Engage "binding to tip" to start; "toepiece to heelpiece" in the fall line; "binding to tail" to end."
Like the man said, you paid for the whole ski; may as well use it!
Kind of funny... had read this topic before last ski week for the season. Knew I was too forward and shifted back a little below the fall line. But still not enough to properly work the tail.
Then you put up that long post re Rookies. Maybe that line above was the only thing I could quickly figure out what was meant, but something clicked... "Ah, when they say ski the whole ski they actually mean ski the whole ski included the tail!"
Sometimes it just has to be described another way to get the point.
Also, I understand that snow boarders have a much easier time than skiers controlling fore/aft balance. Feet spread wide apart and attached to the same plank gives them a much larger range of motion to work with. Us skiers have feet attached to independently moving planks and a very small range of motion.
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