• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

Road biking 2018

Ron

Seeking the next best ski
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 8, 2015
Posts
9,282
Location
Steamboat Springs, Co
cool stuff! I have to enlarge the font though :) Sorry I didn't get your sarcasm (which I always appreciate) Why didnt you just post up that article again? Thanks!! I am having fun playing around with PSi now on my other bikes. My next road bike will def' be able to clear a 32mm (actual) tire front/rear. So sold on the ride quality and obvious lower rolling resistance. Mu neighbor and I did a semi-scientific roll test since we are almost exactly the same weight and have the same wheel sets and tires. Once I lowered my PSI I was rolling faster on descents than his bike and it was so much smoother.

@cantunamunch seems like 32 is the sweet spot for road bikes? Thoughts?
 

cantunamunch

Meh
Skier
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Posts
22,122
Location
Lukey's boat
Hmm the original article will be a deep dive into the archives.

Anyway - to catch everyone up - there are several problems with steel drum tire tests, and there are mismatches between drum results and rolling-wheel results, dependent on tire pressure. In the original BQ test, Heine surmised that one primary difference was suspension losses -jiggling- in the bike and rider. Basically any tire that made your body jiggle more was actually costing you energy - and tires that had very low rolling resistance on the drum but that felt harsh had hidden energy costs. Here is Heine's summary of his views at that time.

Right, sure, but how do we quantify those jiggling losses? That is a rather big task, and the Velus project I linked to above attempted to break off chunks and deal with them piecemeal. Thus:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877705815014538 <- measuring vibrations imparted to hands

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1077546315577312 <- how much do YOU the rider actually influence the vibration?

Now, all this sounds like old beardie with SPD sandals territory - I mean serious athletes don't really worry about body jiggle and want to go as fast as they can on really fast tires. Narrow tires feel fast and should be slinkier in the air and spin up fast. Right? Right?

One person who really helped changed that perception is Josh Poertner of Zipp/Silca fame.

http://nyvelocity.com/articles/interviews/josh-poertner/

"I was shocked in the early days of our attempt to be the first carbon wheel to finish Roubaix to find that the difference between a longer wheelbase cobble specific race bike with curvy seat stays and numerous ‘comfort features’ and its standard race bike cousin which everybody ‘knows’ is too stiff for riding the cobbles, equates to an air pressure difference of less than 10psi, and generally depending on which bikes you are comparing, the difference might only be 3-4psi equivalent pressure difference between the two."

Pay attention to the section about stacking springs just behind that section, it will become important later.

In the meantime, drum testing has been very scrutinized indeed:

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/05/02/testing-tires-isnt-easy/

Now, as to width speed spot. Yes, there is one. And Poertner shows us approximately where it sits:

http://trstriathlon.com/talking-tires-with-joshua-poertner/

Look specifically at the third graph on that page. That is the pressure sweet spot - but it is also the width sweet spot for your body size! (70 psi rough pavement sweet spot in @Ron 's suggested 32mm tire width is equivalent air quantity to 110 psi in 25 mm. Real Clydes who ride over 100psi in 28mm should look at 35mm tires and so on...)

Now back to that stacking springs idea. Remember how Poertner was talking about running tires with low enough pressure until just short of actually breaking the rim? Now it seems that, if we mull about what we know already, we are eventually going to come up with a system wheel - wheels specifically designed to work with specific tires. There really seems to be nothing else to do there, and the only way we can change the steepness of the lines in the third graph (which would be the only way to shift the sweet spot) is to integrate the wheel and tire.

Aha, not so fast sir! What if we change the spring rate and lossiness of the air in the tire itself? Well we can't really do that but we can certainly experiment with stacking different spring rates that are 'tweeners' between tire and rim - enter the tire liner concept. No, not your granddad's puncture guard liners, but foam flex managing ones:

https://www.vittoria.com/us/air-liner-vittoria
(it will come to road too, don't worry)

If, after reading all that, you get the idea that we still don't really know much and there is lots more to come, I agree. Isn't it exciting? :):golfclap::):yahoo:
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Ron

luliski

Making fresh tracks
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
May 17, 2017
Posts
2,567
Location
California
Brutally windy on my ride today. I thought I might have my wheels swept out from under me by the crosswind, and going into the wind, was sometimes under 10 mph. Still, it was good for clearing my head after two long days at work.
This is Putah Creek, part of the Sacramento River watershed, in Winters, California. The Tour of California will be passing through here soon!
IMG_4498.JPG
 

coskigirl

Skiing the powder
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
4,618
Location
Evergreen, CO
So the main fitter at my bike shop had an emergency and had to leave but another guy did a basic fit. We only needed to move my seat forward a tiny bit to get my knees in the right place then rotate my handlebars to adjust the wrist bend. Incredibly the seat height we set on the test ride while my sales person hobbled on crutches was spot on. They didn’t charge me for the fit, a brake shim, a beer, and some basic pedals to throw on my old bike so I can sell it to a colleague. I love my bike shop.
 

Ron

Seeking the next best ski
SkiTalk Tester
Joined
Nov 8, 2015
Posts
9,282
Location
Steamboat Springs, Co
@cantunamunch great post, enjoyed reading it. very much of the same data and findings as Jan Heine and GCN. I am currently at 65psi on my Schwalbe pro ones 28(effective 31.5) and 75 on the Schwalbe 25's (effective 27). next ride will try 70 on the rear. Without a doubt (the Garmin tells the story) I'm rolling faster since reducing the Psi.
 
Thread Starter
TS
Rainbow Jenny

Rainbow Jenny

Making fresh tracks
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Dec 6, 2015
Posts
895
Location
California and Hokkaido
Mother/daughter ride today. My daughter likes to detour for a sprint down "Olive Lane." The surface there is interesting: olive paste and pits over pavement.

How I hated bike riding on that campus and the nightmare roundabout congestion between classes...a friend actually shoved someone over just so he wouldn't fall!

I’m coming over for a real ride with you there!
 
Last edited:

luliski

Making fresh tracks
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
May 17, 2017
Posts
2,567
Location
California
Mother/daughter ride today. My daughter likes to detour for a sprint down "Olive Lane." The surface there is interesting: olive paste and pits over pavement.
View attachment 45810
How I hated bike riding on that campus and the nightmare roundabout congestion between classes...a friend actually shoved someone over just so he wouldn't fall!

I’m coming over for a real ride with you there!
Lol, @Rainbow Jenny ! My daughter wanted to ride through campus and stop by the Whole Earth Festival but I couldn't imagine doing that with our road bikes. I think we might go up to Tahoe with our bikes this week. My daughter wants to ski and I want to ride hills.
 

cantunamunch

Meh
Skier
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Posts
22,122
Location
Lukey's boat
@cantunamunch great post, enjoyed reading it. very much of the same data and findings as Jan Heine and GCN. I am currently at 65psi on my Schwalbe pro ones 28(effective 31.5) and 75 on the Schwalbe 25's (effective 27). next ride will try 70 on the rear. Without a doubt (the Garmin tells the story) I'm rolling faster since reducing the Psi.

The Garmin might tell a story - but do you have a Quadlock on your phone? The Garmin tells epics, the phone can tell intense little multidimensional episodes. By running graphing accelerometer apps like Vibsensor you can even see your tire lugs - and how they act for (or against) you.

If you're spending money on Compass tires, it's a real quick and easy justification - and the quickest way I can think of of looking for comparably supple budget rubber.
 

coskigirl

Skiing the powder
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
4,618
Location
Evergreen, CO
Today was expected to be rainy all day which is not common in Colorado so this making 2 Saturdays in a row of all day rain was odd. I woke up to dry roads by my house and weather showed it would be after 9 when it started raining so I decided to head out on my road bike for a short spin. A little more than halfway into the ride I encountered mist, fog, and hail remaining from yesterdays insane thunderstorm with hail and flash flooding. About that time it also started raining. Then about a mile further I accidentally ended up in the middle of the Morgul Bismark time trial made extra interesting by the mud in the bike lane from the flash flooding yesterday.

IMG_3707.JPG
IMG_3712.JPG
IMG_3715.JPG
 

Tony S

I have a confusion to make ...
Skier
Team Gathermeister
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Posts
12,875
Location
Maine
@Wending and I did what for us was a hard road ride today. Extremely scenic but killer hills, with 5,000' of climbing over 60mi. Spring color spectrum amazing - especially the blueberry barrens. Couple of pics:

20180519_152518-01.jpeg
20180519_134009-01.jpeg
20180519_122517-01.jpeg
FB_IMG_1526781283011.jpg
FB_IMG_1526781291904.jpg
 

Fuller

Semi Local
Skier
Joined
Feb 18, 2016
Posts
1,523
Location
Whitefish or Florida
Wow that's quite some scenery! Looks like a great ride.

I did my Saturday 45 mile club ride, whizzing around town with 150 of my friends at the highest speed possible. I'm in the B+ group these days (24 mph controlled ride), I can go out front for a respectable amount of time but still need to get out of the wind for most of the ride. We have a great bike club here in St Pete, really well run with good people all around. I love my bike!
 

coskigirl

Skiing the powder
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
4,618
Location
Evergreen, CO
Wow that's quite some scenery! Looks like a great ride.

I did my Saturday 45 mile club ride, whizzing around town with 150 of my friends at the highest speed possible. I'm in the B+ group these days (24 mph controlled ride), I can go out front for a respectable amount of time but still need to get out of the wind for most of the ride. We have a great bike club here in St Pete, really well run with good people all around. I love my bike!

I cannot imagine a 24mph average ride. Is that mostly flat? I know I'm at a disadvantage at altitude but I can't comprehend 45 miles at that speed being B+.
 

luliski

Making fresh tracks
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
May 17, 2017
Posts
2,567
Location
California
I cannot imagine a 24mph average ride. Is that mostly flat? I know I'm at a disadvantage at altitude but I can't comprehend 45 miles at that speed being B+.
I'm not saying 24 mph is easy, but it's much easier in a group. He did say he has to get out of the wind for most of the ride. And I think Florida's pretty flat. The humidity would kill me though!
 

luliski

Making fresh tracks
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
Joined
May 17, 2017
Posts
2,567
Location
California
I rode a metric century today and it felt pretty good considering. It was in Sonoma County, and had about 4000 ft of climbing. Only got a few pics (actually my friend got them, I was busy trying not to fall too far behind.
IMG_2452.jpg
IMG_2453.jpg
IMG_2456.jpg
 

scott43

So much better than a pro
Skier
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
13,704
Location
Great White North
I cannot imagine a 24mph average ride. Is that mostly flat? I know I'm at a disadvantage at altitude but I can't comprehend 45 miles at that speed being B+.
As I grind up a climb at 4mph whilst getting my ass chewed off by deer flies....
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ron

Sponsor

Staff online

Top