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milkman

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I just learned about this remarkable program that started with a You Tube video.

I am very glad to hear of, but was not aware of, the emphasis on safety that ski areas have initiated over the past few years.

The program focuses on basic skier safety that is related to Speed and Space. I recall from flight training that this is exactly what we're taught when we seek a pilots license. SPEED in and of itself is not a problem as long as there is an appropriate SPACE between skiers. SPACE is much more a function of TIME than it is DISTANCE. Skiers who want to ski fast must keep appropriate spacing between themselves and slower skiing skiers.

Today I heard a skier at my favorite mountain tell a story about an adult male showing a group of friends his app that recorded his skiing at 72 MPH and his son's GPS recording him at 80 MPH. This was on a BLUE run in an area that's a great boomer groomer but it's also a run used by many blue-green skiers to get down in an area without green runs. I think it's a perfect example of the inappropriate speed differential that can lead to catastrophic accidents.

If you haven' watched "Ride Another Day" it's worth 5 minutes of your time.
 

Andy Mink

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karlo

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I just learned about this remarkable program that started with a You Tube video.

I am very glad to hear of, but was not aware of, the emphasis on safety that ski areas have initiated over the past few years.

The program focuses on basic skier safety that is related to Speed and Space. I recall from flight training that this is exactly what we're taught when we seek a pilots license. SPEED in and of itself is not a problem as long as there is an appropriate SPACE between skiers. SPACE is much more a function of TIME than it is DISTANCE. Skiers who want to ski fast must keep appropriate spacing between themselves and slower skiing skiers.

Today I heard a skier at my favorite mountain tell a story about an adult male showing a group of friends his app that recorded his skiing at 72 MPH and his son's GPS recording him at 80 MPH. This was on a BLUE run in an area that's a great boomer groomer but it's also a run used by many blue-green skiers to get down in an area without green runs. I think it's a perfect example of the inappropriate speed differential that can lead to catastrophic accidents.

If you haven' watched "Ride Another Day" it's worth 5 minutes of your time.

Interesting. Ok, mandatory use of an app. Central station serving participating ski resorts that tag riders for excessive speed. Pull such skiers aside at lift for friendly advice, then warning, then training.

BTW, I viewed the sad story twice this season already, for instructor safety training. PSIA online training. Upon completion of each module, which can include mandatory viewing of a video, I get a certificate of completion. How about those 14 and above completing industry-mandated training to be eligible for a lift ticket issued to them? Or 18 and above. Someone set up the system and invite the resorts to sign up. Third party system that does not share client data between resorts, except training completion. Maybe PSIA itself can do it, and the connections with resorts. It has the training tools. Just brainstorming.
 
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milkman

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I'm told that Vail maintains a central database on all skier warnings so that a skier who receives a warning at one of their resorts can be noted as a multiple offender if pulled over on the slopes at another Vail operated property.
 

KingGrump

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mandatory use of an app. Central station serving participating ski resorts that tag riders for excessive speed.

That is just so wrong. Best of big brother at work.

Speed doesn't kill. Incompetence kills.
If the resorts groom the trails a little less smooth, there will be a lot less speed.
 

Jacob

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Speed doesn't kill. Incompetence kills.

I'm pretty sure that speed is a major component.

If I tumble into someone while going 5 mph, I'm probably not going to do much damage. If I slam into someone while going 50 mph, then at least one of us is going to end up badly hurt.

In both cases, I'm incompetent. The difference between the two is the speed at which I'm skiing incompetently.
 

KingGrump

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If one is competent, one would not go 50 mph in a crowd environment.

Incompetence ranks way higher than speed in my book.
 

martyg

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Interesting. Ok, mandatory use of an app. Central station serving participating ski resorts that tag riders for excessive speed. Pull such skiers aside at lift for friendly advice, then warning, then training.

BTW, I viewed the sad story twice this season already, for instructor safety training. PSIA online training. Upon completion of each module, which can include mandatory viewing of a video, I get a certificate of completion. How about those 14 and above completing industry-mandated training to be eligible for a lift ticket issued to them? Or 18 and above. Someone set up the system and invite the resorts to sign up. Third party system that does not share client data between resorts, except training completion. Maybe PSIA itself can do it, and the connections with resorts. It has the training tools. Just brainstorming.

NSAA would never go for it. They have created the wild west system and have resisted every effort to increase safety for guests. Publicly they will say otherwise. Sit in committee meetings and it is a very different language that is being used.

https://www.snowsportsafety.org/ is doing good work. NSAA has refused to work with them in any capacity.
 

martyg

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If one is competent, one would not go 50 mph in a crowd environment.

Incompetence ranks way higher than speed in my book.

This.

The problem is not so much speed. It is lack of respect and consideration. The same goes if you are driving a vehicle, or any other activity.
 

Tom K.

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I think it's a perfect example of the inappropriate speed differential that can lead to catastrophic accidents.

IMO, this is the heart of the issue, though absolute speed is also a component.
 

martyg

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IMO, this is the heart of the issue, though absolute speed is also a component.

The worst crashes that I see are two skiers, skiing equally as fast, colliding into one another.

We constantly stress that scenario in PSIA and USSA clinics, and remind everyone to leave plenty of space.
 

Jacob

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If one is competent, one would not go 50 mph in a crowd environment.

Incompetence ranks way higher than speed in my book.

The problem is that it's very difficult to explain to incompetent people about the nuances of different circumstances and what is appropriate. Also, there are a lot of people out there who think that going fast is an indicator of skill. So they might think that going 50 mph in a crowded area means that they're competent.

It's much easier to explain to them that speed kills, rather than trying to explain that going 70 mph on an empty slope is less dangerous than going 50 mph on a crowded slope, and going 20 mph on just about any slope isn't dangerous, while going 20 mph into a lift line is.

When people are very incompetent, it's easier and more effective to explain to them that going fast is dangerous. As they get less incompetent, then they can get a better understanding of the nuances of different situations.
 

AmyPJ

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If one is competent, one would not go 50 mph in a crowd environment.

Incompetence ranks way higher than speed in my book.
Unfortunately, having big brother can help keep us safe from the incompetent or at the very least those who have zero regard for others on the hill. Also, incompetence+bravado+no fear=the recipe for disaster. I have zero issues at all with patrol or mountain hosts on the hill monitoring and slowing people down at choke points and other very crowded areas where people tend to still ski like maniacs, as if it's a game.
 

AmyPJ

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The problem is that it's very difficult to explain to incompetent people about the nuances of different circumstances and what is appropriate. Also, there are a lot of people out there who think that going fast is an indicator of skill. So they might think that going 50 mph in a crowded area means that they're competent.

It's much easier to explain to them that speed kills, rather than trying to explain that going 70 mph on an empty slope is less dangerous than going 50 mph on a crowded slope, and going 20 mph on just about any slope isn't dangerous, while going 20 mph into a lift line is.

When people are very incompetent, it's easier and more effective to explain to them that going fast is dangerous. As they get less incompetent, then they can get a better understanding of the nuances of different situations.

QFT X 100.
One of my funnest runs last weekend in the fog was following some L3s down one of the craziest little pitches in regards to crowds and funky snow, and going even slower than I would, making round, rhythmic turns. It was cathartic.
 
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KingGrump

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I skied Stratton the past several days. I haven’t skied SVT for early season for quite a while now. What really surprises me is the speed of the skiers/boarders going down the hill. I am not exactly a slow skier. Yet I watched in amazement how some of these skiers/boarders go flying pasted me as if I was standing still.

I stood there and watched them go by for a while and tried to figure out what are they doing that I am not. Then it dawned on me it’s the reverse. I’m making turns and they are not. THEY ARE NOT MAKING TURNS. At least not what I considered as turns. They would aim straight for a general area. Do some minor course correction (wobble) along the way. Then a sudden change the heading with a little wiggle. Rinse and repeat. Carrying all their speed down the hill all the while. Like a runaway semi or more accurately, a SCUD missile. Their only semblance to speed control is various degrees of hockey stop. We call the “leg shakers.” Scary sights to behold.

Andrew looked at me and said “They would be dead within 150 feet at Taos.”

Revelation – It’s the grooming. The place is groomed dead flat.

Back up about 15 years. We made Killington our home mountain for 8 years after 25+ seasons at Stratton. Our initial reaction - the terrain is a bit steeper. The grooming just plain rough on the more advanced runs. Over the years, we come to appreciate the “rough” grooming. It keeps skiers/boarders in control. Keeps them from straight lining everything. Darwin and the trees will take care of the violators.

Fast forward to the present. We do 100+ days out west every season. One of the things we learned at Taos is ski in control at all times. My rule of thumb for skiing Taos is if you cannot come to a complete stop at the end of a turn – you are skiing out of control. A short, miserable and painful death awaits. Most think I am kidding until they see the terrain from the top of a typical advanced run.

Back to the typical Stratton skier/boarder. IME, they couldn’t do a control stop in 200 feet if their life depended on it.

Education definitely has its place, but there is no fixing stupid.

Anyway, forget about the mandatory app usage. Just much easier to go with mandatory shock collar and tower mounted radar guns. We have the tech. Much more cost effective too.
 

karlo

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mandatory use of an app. Central station serving participating ski resorts that tag riders for excessive speed. Pull such skiers aside at lift for friendly advice, then warning, then training.

That is just so wrong. Best of big brother at work.

Is it the privacy issue that is of concern, where we are, who we are with? RFID lift tix already penetrate that envelope. I’m not as high resolution as a GPS tracking app, but still.

I like it. Groom less, ski more.
 

Seldomski

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I have real beef with blind rollers... you must be able to stop in the distance that you can see. If you can't see over the roller, you should be coming nearly to a stop as you go over. But, if you do that, you also might increase the risk for getting clobbered from behind...

IMO ski resorts must do a better job with blind rollers. Either policing them better to pull passes or installing fencing or something that requires you slow down. IDK, maybe even a stop sign...

One other idea would be license plates/registration for skiers. Require an identifying number be worn, either as a vest or a band that goes around your helmet/hat. Maybe then in a hit and run accident there is an easier way to identify the culprit. Or easier way to have other people report reckless behavior. As you see on the internet, anonymity can turn normal people into jerks.
 

Fuller

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With you on the blind rollers, I was having fun at Alta on a trail; 3 blind rollers and then a hard right. The second time I turned it into 4 rollers, air, and a long bounce down the cliff to the trail below. Missed the hard right but lived to tell the tale. I wasn't skiing that fast at all but I damn near killed myself. Glad no one was involved by either getting injured or laughing at me. I feel like I'm a fairly cautious skier but I still manage to cheat death at least once a year. Of course everyone on the mountain is contributing to the risk pool in their own way. It adds up, best keep your wits about you.
 

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