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Jacques

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Always dangerous to assume, but I read it that you only do a base grind when it is needed as normal, not to recondition the Phantom treatment. DPS says that a base grind does not get rid of the Phantom treatment because the Phantom permeates the material thus a base grind does not eliminate the Phantom.

My take is a Phantom treatment is good for the life of the ski.

I did not feel like it was as slippery in the lift line as a freshly waxed ski, but was very good while trying not to fall (i.e. while skiing) :roflmao:

"you only do a base grind when it is needed as normal" The question is...what is normal?

With good waxing base care, a base may go for a super long time before a grind is "needed". I fact, it may be at it's peak speed after all that skiing.
Then you can get a new ski that needs a grind for structure right out of the gate.
Then you can get a new ski (or have one ground) that is so deeply ground that it needs steel scraping right out of the gate to speed it up.
So when it comes to stone grinding a ski, there are too many variables to say there is a "normal"
 

Jacques

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This was a point of confusion with Phantom and somewhere on the DPS site or online they clarified things. Phantom does not require any base grind. You do it the same as you normally would (if at all). The message DPS was trying to get out was if DPS is applied and in the future the ski has a base grind, you don't have to re-apply because it goes all the way through the base (they have data on that) and it even gets more slippery after a grind, not less.

Base burn is a different issue. I am not sure what effect Phantom has on that, and personally, I am not convinced it is even an issue, but I do agree waxing makes the bottoms look a lot better. I am not sure if DPS does the same thing. I have skied it for one season and my skis look fine, no base burn. They have never had it, so no change.

In "their" info they said "when the base gets grey", or to that effect. That is referring to a hairy burned base.
THEN one could stone grind to remove the burn without removing the treatment as they claim it soaks through the entire base.
 

Started at 53

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"you only do a base grind when it is needed as normal" The question is...what is normal?

With good waxing base care, a base may go for a super long time before a grind is "needed". I fact, it may be at it's peak speed after all that skiing.
Then you can get a new ski that needs a grind for structure right out of the gate.
Then you can get a new ski (or have one ground) that is so deeply ground that it needs steel scraping right out of the gate to speed it up.
So when it comes to stone grinding a ski, there are too many variables to say there is a "normal"

I think you just laid out what is normal. They (as in DPS) have stated there is not a need to do base grinds to reinvigorate the treatment. But they also say a base grind will not hinder the treatment as it has permeated the material. Seems pretty simple to me
 

Jacques

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This is what Phantom says.

"Your skis or snowboard will retain a glossy black appearance after a Phantom application. After thirty days or so of use, any base material will begin to look “dry” as snow abrasion starts take its toll. At this point, a stone grind will freshen the appearance to new."

So in their opinion a dry looking base from thirty days of skiing is only an appearance issue.

They again state that the issue is purely an appearance issue. So I guess it's all good gray and hairy or not.

"Your skis or snowboard will retain a glossy black appearance after a Phantom application. After thirty days or so of use, any base material, whether it’s been Phantomed or not, will begin to look “dry” as snow abrasion starts to take its toll; a stone grind will freshen the visual appearance to new. However, to clarify any prior confusion: stone grinding is NOT required on a Phantomed base at any prescribed interval. Stone grinding is generally a good idea irrespective of Phantom, to remove hair and dirt, and place a fresh structure on your ski or snowboard. Our test groups in New Zealand and Chile ran entire seasons, skiing practically everyday, without new stone grinds. In both climates, after months on snow, there was no noticeable drop in Phantom performance – only the visual appearance of the base."
 

nay

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Maybe this was covered - I haven’t read everything yet. I did the Kickstarter, and it’s still in the box, because this season has been brutal for rock gouging.

So what happens to a treated set of skis that are getting ptex repairs. How do you “touch up” Phantom?
 

Andy Mink

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I thought there was an expiration date of six months on Phantom, or was that its cousin (forget the name-the stuff you don't have to cure and is targeted at stores)?
That was the other brand. Can't recall it's name either.
 

Monique

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The base will burn eventually, then "they" say a grind will be needed. That's what "they" said, not me.

I'm pretty sure 99.5% of recreational skiers don't ski hard enough to burn the bases. I think drying out/getting that whitish tinge may be confused with burning.

A dried out base is the same as a burned base! My take is seen and hopefully understood in this video.

That was what I meant when I asked about base burn.

This is what Phantom says.

"Your skis or snowboard will retain a glossy black appearance after a Phantom application. After thirty days or so of use, any base material will begin to look “dry” as snow abrasion starts take its toll. At this point, a stone grind will freshen the appearance to new."

So in their opinion a dry looking base from thirty days of skiing is only an appearance issue.

They again state that the issue is purely an appearance issue. So I guess it's all good gray and hairy or not.

If it's hairy, that HAS to affect gliding!
 

Jacques

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That was what I meant when I asked about base burn.



If it's hairy, that HAS to affect gliding!

Well, one would think so. I will assume that greying and hairy are the same.
Anyway DPS says the glide will remain the same. IDK, maybe it wasn't that good to start with.
From what folks are saying here, it seem to be working though.

Funny how they say any ski will become abrraided after about 30 days of skiing. I guess they mean any ski that has not been waxed for the period.
 

nay

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Ok, so hairy and gliding or not is one thing, which I am desperately trying to avoid the temptation of responding to.

What about ptex base repairs?
 

Andy Mink

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Ok, so hairy and gliding or not is one thing, which I am desperately trying to avoid the temptation of responding to.

What about ptex base repairs?
I took the base to the edge and in a little from the edge on the DPS 95 test skis. Not quite a core shot but close. P-tex has held fine. The tiny bit of p-tex doesn't have the Phantom treatment on it but I doubt you'd notice.
 

nay

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I took the base to the edge and in a little from the edge on the DPS 95 test skis. Not quite a core shot but close. P-tex has held fine. The tiny bit of p-tex doesn't have the Phantom treatment on it but I doubt you'd notice.

I found an answer from DPS on the Kickstarter page. No difference in repair process or outcome, you just have an untreated repair area. They say the same thing - repair areas are generally too small to affect glide.

DPS says they are considering a smaller repair size of the product, but I guess the question is will you ever notice a difference since p-tex repairs aren’t sintered structure and don’t hold wax very well in the first place.

Seems a potential advantage of Phantom if it isn’t affected by sintered vs. extruded p-tex structure with regards to penetration since wax is. Unless of course repairs truly don’t affect glide...
 

ScottB

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I have talked to DPS several times about Phantom and concerning the base grinds, burning, hairy and glide (tough to resist this setup), ect.. they are not implying anything other than grinding a base does not affect Phantom. Do whatever you feel is right for the maintenance of your base, they aren't implying anything needs to done other than what you normally would do without Phantom.

For ptex repairs, the new ptex will not glide like phantomed material. If is a big enough area, you could/should re-apply the Phantom. I think they imply for small area's you won't notice any difference. They don't say how big is big, but use your judgement. If you measure the repair in multiple inches in length and width, then talk to them about a repair kit.
 

nay

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If you measure the repair in multiple inches in length and width, then talk to them about a repair kit.

That’s what I’m getting at - if Phantom is available in a repair kit and is just as effective on repairs as the sintered base material (unlike wax), then that’s a fairly major advantage if you tend to ski in hazard zones.

If they don’t bother to offer a repair kit, then you might wax again.

It sounds like a lot of people will wax again anyway, because they won’t like the unwaxed look, and Phantom would be leveling out performance between waxes.
 

Monique

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That’s what I’m getting at - if Phantom is available in a repair kit and is just as effective on repairs as the sintered base material (unlike wax), then that’s a fairly major advantage if you tend to ski in hazard zones.

If they don’t bother to offer a repair kit, then you might wax again.

It sounds like a lot of people will wax again anyway, because they won’t like the unwaxed look, and Phantom would be leveling out performance between waxes.

Hasn't it always been the case that P-Tex repairs don't glide as well as the manufactured base - and that for non-race skiing, you don't really notice it? I've never noticed a P-Tex patch.
 

Andy Mink

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Hasn't it always been the case that P-Tex repairs don't glide as well as the manufactured base - and that for non-race skiing, you don't really notice it? I've never noticed a P-Tex patch.
I never noticed them. Growing up skiing in PA I think half my bases were p-tex repairs. Depending on the size of the repair I would guess only the very top percentile of skiers would notice.
 

nay

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Hasn't it always been the case that P-Tex repairs don't glide as well as the manufactured base - and that for non-race skiing, you don't really notice it? I've never noticed a P-Tex patch.

Also maybe the point of not worrying much about base burn and hair, etc. Do any of us not skiing against a clock ever really notice?

My bases are currently mangled - because why repair when more was coming? - unwaxed for over 30 ski days, and they are sticky when it’s sticky just like everybody else, and I was ripping that perfect fast slush we get on the groomers this time of year yesterday with zero glide resistance.

DPS probably can’t say “look, most ski work is just obsessive and there’s generally not much point, so just apply this and ski it”, although that’s actually the point of Phantom.

I’m going to go at it from that perspective, because it would be hard for me to care less about what my bases *look* like.

Maybe I’ll do my p-tex repairs today and then the Phantom. Spring is always the best test.
 

Monique

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Also maybe the point of not worrying much about base burn and hair, etc. Do any of us not skiing against a clock ever really notice?

My bases are currently mangled - because why repair when more was coming? - unwaxed for over 30 ski days, and they are sticky when it’s sticky just like everybody else, and I was ripping that perfect fast slush we get on the groomers this time of year yesterday with zero glide resistance.

DPS probably can’t say “look, most ski work is just obsessive and there’s generally not much point, so just apply this and ski it”, although that’s actually the point of Phantom.

I’m going to go at it from that perspective, because it would be hard for me to care less about what my bases *look* like.

Maybe I’ll do my p-tex repairs today and then the Phantom. Spring is always the best test.

Hm. I definitely feel the difference and prefer a wax every four ski days .. enough that I track each of my skis. But they never go as fast when I wax them as when @Doug Briggs does. That first run can be alarming!
 

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