Retraction Turns - how do you use this phrase?

[Mike King]

Kirkwood was one of the first, if not the first Ski School to, in 1997, adopt the blue and white Elan SCX short super sidecut soft ski in its rental and teaching fleet.

Back then snowboarding was all the rage, so we instructors got to free ski allot. We would take out the SCX's and go as fast as we could on a steep groomed blue run and see if we could scribe a purely carved circle down and around and back up and through the apex of the circle and back own, entirely on edge. I did it a handful of times, but many times I would stall just before the circle's apex and have to cheat with an uphill push off to make it up and over. It was a hoot to try back then.

I think I mentioned elsewhere that a couple of years ago my trainer said that I will not progress further until I stop skiing edge to edge and add more rotation.


Edit: I will say it again. The title of this thread is "Retraction Turns" and

There is only one way (that I know) to turn a ski that is retracted. And that is Rotation.

Tim, watch the video on Gellie's website I linked above. It will reveal what the rotation is and why it is there. Using examples from the World Cup. Hint: it is about turning the ski inside the radius possible given the edge angle developed.

Mike

 

[Tim Hodgson]

I started watching Gellie's Toppling video when you suggested it earlier today, but had to get back to work. He already has given me something I can use in my instruction and which no doubt applies to me here also.

As a relatively blind man feeling my way through the movement analysis of my and my students' skiing, I may be correct in my analysis while feeling the Elephant's tail, while equally blind others are similarly correct in their analysis while feeling the Elephant's trunk.

I can already tell that the video will be outstanding.

 

[Steve]

Angulate first. Inclination is the "last ditch" measure to continue tipping the skis. If you think incline first, you "over-commit" the upper body into the center of the turn too early in the turn. This movement actually REDUCES the pressure on the ski edges and kills getting early edge engagement in the top half of the turn.

Although this is a different kind of skiing, he does talk about angulating early in the turn as you suggest. Do you agree that what he is saying is similar to what you're saying?

 

[nSkier]

@Steve,

The instructor is that clip is just pushing the tails around, there is minimal usage of ski design. It's not the kind of skiing anyone should strive for IMO. Whatever angulation he's getting is achieved with tail pushing not fundamental movements like tipping. Its also clear that he doesn't own flexing-to-release as he uses some flexing to get through bumps but extension outside the bumps.

 

[jimtransition]

@Steve,

The instructor is that clip is just pushing the tails around, there is minimal usage of ski design. It's not the kind of skiing anyone should strive for IMO. Whatever angulation he's getting is achieved with tail pushing not fundamental movements like tipping. Its also clear that he doesn't own flexing-to-release as he uses some flexing to get through bumps but extension outside the bumps.

That ex olympian mogul coach doesn't 'own' flex to release? Come on, there's being a keyboard warrior and then there's just being silly.

 

[nSkier]

That ex olympian mogul coach doesn't 'own' flex to release? Come on, there's being a keyboard warrior and then there's just being silly.

I didn't realize his pedigree...however I don't think I'm wrong in how in my assessment. He's clearly extending-to-release in his groomer short turns, its not "bad" skiing its just not what I would personally strive towards. I respect your opinion though, cheers.

also, I would describe "owning" flexing as being able to use it in every situation. It's possible to "own" it in the bumps but not anywhere else. I'll grant that this may not be the goal of the video. I have skied with a few pro mogul skiers and I have the highest respect for their abilities.

 

[Loki1]

Nice article, good to note that 3 of 4 transitions are flexing... and there are some misunderstandings in there: the tactics of the extension are off, some flexing/extending sequences are off etc...

This shows your misunderstanding/elective dismisal of the important parts of the article.

Trough transition, the racer is in a compact stance that is stable and conserves energy.

I take it that you would subscribe this as a flexion transition. When in reality it is an extension through transition turn entry. Look at what he says. He makes no mention of flexion, only the extension.

PERFORMANCE TURN Performance turns tend to be Sasha Rearick’s preference in most situations. Trough transition, the racer is in a compact stance that is stable and conserves energy. From this stance, the skier can control his or her extension against the edged, outside ski at turn initiation. In this way, the racer can pressure and bend the outside ski into a carved arc, maintaining suction-like contact with the snow. For recreational skiing, the performance transition is usually the target transition when skiing round-shaped turns because it allows skiers to distribute pressure more uniformly throughout the turn; pressure doesn’t build greatly at one point in the turn.

Weird not one mention of flexion. Only mentions the important parts. The outcomes.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Loki1, that article you are referencing is a word salad. Just because Sasha doesn't mention flexion doesn't mean he's not coaching it.

 

[dbostedo]

@Loki1, that article you are referencing is a word salad. Just because Sasha doesn't mention flexion doesn't mean he's not coaching it.

I take it that you would subscribe this as a flexion transition.

I would think the terms in that paragraph of "trough transition", "performance transition", and "compact stance" all refer to a flexion based transition - where both legs are deeply flexed in the mid-point of the transition, and one leg then extends into the new turn. Or are you defining "flexion transition" a different way? Maybe there's just a definition mis-match here.

 

[Tony S]

This shows your misunderstanding/elective dismisal of the important parts of the article.



I take it that you would subscribe this as a flexion transition. When in reality it is an extension through transition turn entry. Look at what he says. He makes no mention of flexion, only the extension.



Weird not one mention of flexion. Only mentions the important parts. The outcomes.

I would think the terms in that paragraph of "trough transition", "performance transition", and "compact stance" all refer to a flexion based transition - where both legs are deeply flexed in the mid-point of the transition, and one leg then extends into the new turn. Or are you defining "flexion transition" a different way? Maybe there's just a definition mis-match here.

N.B. I strongly suspect "trough" is a typo for "through."

 

[Loki1]

@Loki1, that article you are referencing is a word salad. Just because Sasha doesn't mention flexion doesn't mean he's not coaching it.

I've actually found coaches at that level to be very precise with their words and don't omit important things on whim. The point I was trying to make with that post is that he is talking about a few things that are important in the transition. While flexion isn't mentioned it doesn't mean its not present. To me it just means there are more important things than the flexion occurring, such as the extension of the new outside leg to, the ability to pressure and bend the ski, and maintaining contact with the surface(no float). Coaches at this level tend to focus on the important things and let the less important stuff work itself out. I think most coaches are focusing on the flexion or staying low in transition at the detrement of their athletes. I think both those actions are an effect of a desired outcome not the cause of it. We should be looking more at what Sasha is describing and not on the flexion/staying low.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I understand what you are saying immediately above, @Loki, and have no problem with it. I'm sure that Sasha communicates well with his racers.

But previously you posted this. I disagree.

....I take it that you would subscribe this as a flexion transition. When in reality it is an extension through transition turn entry. Look at what he says. He makes no mention of flexion, only the extension.....

The article we are discussing was published in the PSIA rag, for PSIA instructors. It is written by Ellen Post Foster and Matt Boyd, after they attended a presentation made by Sasha Rearick on four types of turns he observes at the World Cup level.

I find it sad that in the write-up of the "Performance Turn," which is identified as the "target turn" for recreational skiers, there is no mention of how weight is transferred, nor how the tipping is accomplished. In my world, in a turn where the skier stays low through transition ("Through transition, the racer is in a compact stance"), weight transfer/release and tipping are made to happen by flexing the new inside leg. That leg's important role is left undercredited in the article. Identifying flexing the new inside leg as the cause of the release/transfer, and of the tipping, would have helped readers identify the "performance turn" as a flexion turn.

Below are the words where the writers, or Sasha, should have clearly indicated the causative effects of flexing the inside leg for weight transfer/release and tipping. But nope, the writers say "while flexing" not "because of flexing." They emphasize extending the new outside leg and moving/staying forward. As if those would alone accomplish the two tasks of weight transfer/release and tipping.

"...the skier remains in a low, athletic stance as he or she moves forward and transfers weight to the new outside ski (fig. 1a). After the weight transfer, the skier begins to tip (edge) the new outside ski and extend the outside leg while flexing the inside leg (fig. 1b). As the skier progressively tips the ski on edge, he or she continues to extend the outside leg, staying forward and increasing pressure (fig. 1c)."

 

[François Pugh]

Sometimes people instructing other folk leave out instructions about doing something those other folk are already doing so they can concentrate on what's missing. Just say'n.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

Thank you Loki1 and LiquidFeet. I was ALWAYS confused by that article. It was one of the PSIA articles which sent me looking for additional and other internet instruction. About five years ago, I asked our resort trainer a question, not about the article per se, but about the concepts discussed therein and he said "Edge before weight/pressure."

So LF, Loki1 do you believe that the phrase "transfers weight to the new outside ski" is correct? Or should it be "Commences edging the new outside ski and transferring weight to it..."

I brought up how vague the Five Fundamentals were as a method for actual instruction -- which are correct and a great concept, but entirely devoid of what to do when and where to do it -- to Ms. Post and, IIRC, it just made her grumpy.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Tim Hodgson, when you release the old outside ski, weight transfer happens. Let's assume our discussion is about both a World Cup skier with hip to snow, since that's the domain of Sasha's coaching, and an intermediate recreational skier who gets a bit of edge angle in the turns, since this turn we are discussing is the one Sasha targets for those skiers.

So how does one release that ski's hold? Sasha says that in this turn he calls "Performance Turn" the skier stays low through transition. The only way to release and stay low is to flex the old outside/new inside leg.

But Sasha talks about extending the new outside leg instead of focusing on flexing the old outside leg. Well, of course one is going to extend that new outside leg, but the old outside leg needs to flex first. He leaves that out. Why?

I suspect Sasha has never taught a "Performance Turn" to a recreational skier who stands tall and pivots both skis to point down the hill at the start of turns, so he doesn't know instructors often have to unteach that extension by focusing pretty intensely on the flexing of the new inside leg.

 

[LiquidFeet]

...............

 

[Loki1]

In my world, in a turn where the skier stays low through transition ("Through transition, the racer is in a compact stance"), weight transfer/release and tipping are made to happen by flexing the new inside leg. That leg's important role is left undercredited in the article. Identifying flexing the new inside leg as the cause of the release/transfer, and of the tipping, would have helped readers identify the "performance turn" as a flexion turn.

I don't really wan to get back into the whole "does flexion/extension cause edge release?" discussion. I think it has been debated enough, and people will believe what they believe regardless the arguments made. That being said, I do want to point out that I don't think the performance turn needs to be identified as either in truth. The extension or flexion during transition is really insignificant to the other things that are pointed out in the description. I think too many people have put too much stock in flexion and what it can or cannot cause. It has taken the focus away from the important things that should be the focus during transition.

"...the skier remains in a low, athletic stance as he or she moves forward and transfers weight to the new outside ski (fig. 1a). After the weight transfer, the skier begins to tip (edge) the new outside ski and extend the outside leg while flexing the inside leg (fig. 1b). As the skier progressively tips the ski on edge, he or she continues to extend the outside leg, staying forward and increasing pressure (fig. 1c).

Moving froward and transfering wieght to the new ski, tipping of new ski while exgtension of new outside leg. Continuing to extend and stay forward while pressure increases. These are the things that are important. The flexion only occurs to get the old outside leg out of the way. Again only one mention. Also look at when it occurs. After weight transfer. That tells me thatonce the weight is transfered the flexion doens't and can't casue the things it is most commenly attributed with. If we don't get it out of the way it will cause problems for sure. But after the weight is transferred it is the role of the weighted leg to release and tipping.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Loki, I gather that you don't think that flexing the old outside leg causes the weight transfer. So as you understand this "Performance Turn," how does the skier transfer weight to the new outside ski while staying low? What does the skier do to make weight transfer happen, without causing the skier to rise up? It's clear the skier is supposed to stay low through transition.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

I was thinking about all of this while I was driving the riding mower this afternoon.

First, LiquidFeet, thank you for posting these threads. It is my experience that, if I can do the move, I can think about how I did it, and then I can explain it, and if I can explain it, then I can teach it. These threads help me test my thoughts and explanations with others who may have different thoughts or explanations or suggestions.

Second, as to whether the flexion of the old outside/new inside ski transfers weight to the old inside/new outside ski: maybe, maybe not.

Maybe for a slow speed relatively flat slope turn.

Maybe not for a turn involving high edge angle turns when scribing arcs with both skis from the top of the turn around and under the skier's body and then out to the other side. I.e., the type of "technical skiing" turn often done on steeper terrain which necessarily involves some more speed. In recollecting my turns like this, I think:

1. New Edge set on both skis does come first (before "weight transfer") and happens at 9 or 3 o'clok when the skies are rolled over to their new edges when the old outside ski leg flexes and the body "topples" over the ski and down the fall line "pulling" both skis onto their new edges.

2. After the new edge set is established on both skis simultaneiously, centrifugal force (rather than weight) bends the skis and keeps the edge hold as the skis arc around to pass under the skier's body.

3. Weight is transferred (if at all) more at 5 and 6 o'clock.

4. What I am describing is not in my opinion a retraction turn.

Does any of this make sense to anybody but me? And if not, what do you think?

 

[Loki1]

@Loki, I gather that you don't think that flexing the old outside leg causes the weight transfer. So as you understand this "Performance Turn," how does the skier transfer weight to the new outside ski while staying low? What does the skier do to make weight transfer happen, without causing the skier to rise up? It's clear the skier is supposed to stay low through transition.

I think there are several ways to make the weight transfer occur. Flexion may be one of them, so is extension, moving the com over the inside ski is one as well. One thing we need to remember, extension doesn't neccesarily cause an up move. You can extend lateraly and not cause the com to move up. I also am not of the thinking that an upward movement of the com is a bad movement, unlike many at this time.
I look at it in terms of the outcomes described in the description ot the performance turn. I also look at in terms of what gives the skier the most opportunity to be successful in the outcomes they are looking to achieve. So looking at the description of the turn there are 2 goals a bit at odds in the performsnce turn. Those are moving forward and staying low. Staying low through trasition will put you in a position that requires imense strength to also be moving forward at the appropriate time. Also moving forward usually requires and extension at the knee while continuing to flex the ankle and hip. This makes it very hard to stay low as it usually results in the com moving upward. So 2 outcomes. What do you do? Depending on the athlete you either have to chose or you may be lucky enough to have an athlete that can pull off both. In most cases though you will not. So you have to decide what is most important. I would, looking at this description, say that the forward movement is more important that staying low for most athletes. Until they develop the strentgh to pull off the low position. The main reason I say this is that it really comes down to strength to stay low through transition and most athletes just don't have the strength to achieve the result they are looking for when staying low. Remember I am talking about athletes at this point not the general skiing public. The general skiing public might have 10%, this includes instructors as well, of people that can pull this off. This is the main reason I think that this idea of flexion or being low through transition isn't the best option for the majority of the ski instruction and coaching.