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Retraction Turns - how do you use this phrase?

geepers

Skiing the powder
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I actually think that clip proves Noodler's point about early engagement. She doesn't have much there, and what she does have is gained by way of hopping onto the top of a speeding train car with perfect balance. It's an impressive trick but not something I want to count on pulling off consistently on my own skiing.

Plenty of engagement at the top of the turn here. Commits to inclination, angulation then increases through the turn. Pretty good turn performance.


Plenty of engagement at the top of the turn here. Commits to inclination, angulation then increases through the turn. Damn fine turn performance.


Plenty of engagement at the top of the turn here. Commits to inclination, angulation then increases through the turn. Pretty good turn performance.


Over-angulated at this stage of the turn. Is balanced on the outside ski - scouts honor - but has now stopped moving inside and is about to have a (mostly) park-n-ride experience. Needs more patience.
gpatters2.JPG


Now others could post plenty of vid of skiers who angulate 1st and commit to little inclination - heluva springs to mind.

I'm not saying "don't get engagement". I just don't think angulation 1st/inclination bad is necessarily going to cure the ills of being too inside too quickly.
 
Thread Starter
TS
LiquidFeet

LiquidFeet

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From that Section 8 video above, here's what its version of "inclination first, angulation second" looks like. Inclination in this case means the whole body is leaning inside at the very top of the turn, from head down to feet. Angulation then develops progressively to the apex. Note that this skier is traveling very fast, on what appears to be an empty slope, with hip almost to snow at apex. At apex, the inside thigh is horizontal, with knee up close to the chest. We are not looking at a two-weeks-a-season recreational skier turn.

Screen Shot 2020-05-13 at 11.10.30 AM.png
Screen Shot 2020-05-13 at 11.10.41 AM.png
Screen Shot 2020-05-13 at 11.10.52 AM.png
 
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Steve

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The Gellie video reminds me of a mantra I've used on and off over the years "Incline to Angulate" meaning that a turn starts with inclination, the angulation develops later in the turn.

Greg Gurshman has an article on this. http://youcanski.com/en/inclined-to-win-ski
The high level race coaches I've skied with in Aspen (yes, former Olympians) say incline first, then angulate. At least a couple of demo team members concur.

Personally, I think that expert skiing is about being able to do it multiple ways. Your mileage may vary. Try it both ways. See if you can master it, then compare.

Mike

I used the Incline first comment over a month ago on this thread and was soundly criticized for it.
 

geepers

Skiing the powder
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Location
Wanaka, New Zealand
From that Section 8 video above, here's what its version of "inclination first, angulation second" looks like. Inclination in this case means the whole body is leaning inside at the very top of the turn, from head down to feet. Angulation then develops progressively to the apex. Note that this skier is traveling very fast, on what appears to be an empty slope, with hip almost to snow at apex. At apex, the inside thigh is horizontal, with knee up close to the chest. We are not looking at a two-weeks-a-season recreational skier turn.

View attachment 102264
View attachment 102265
View attachment 102266

The Section 8 dude is a long time CSIA L4. Believe he used to chat on Epic and maybe here as Skinerd.

I used the Incline first comment over a month ago on this thread and was soundly criticized for it.

Well, some people clearly didn't appreciate useful advice. :doh:
 
Thread Starter
TS
LiquidFeet

LiquidFeet

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Story time. Not sure how this fits in with the discussion as it has progressed. Here goes anyway, because... well, just because.

Once upon a time I took a three-day-race-clinic at Stratton in December. Yes, that one, Tony.

At the end of day three, 4:00ish, I found myself at some Stratton summit with a loooong way down the hill to the lodge. I wasn't alone. Another clinic member was with me. We found the clinic boring, so we had been playing hooky since lunch, just skiing around and talking technique.

His legs were tired. My legs were tired. We talked about how far it was from where we stood to the lodge. It was a warm day, and we had mashed potatoes to deal with all the way home. We discussed tactical ways to limit our muscle stress getting down there. It was a big deal, getting down this hill, given how tired we were.

He chose to make carved turns with looooong radii. We both knew that was going to hurt. I watched as he went down, having to handle major G-forces at each apex. He made it safely, I found out later, but his quads were seriously called on to perform. I did not trust mine to perform as well as his. I was ten years his senior. And, you know, with less body muscle.

I told him I was going to violate a PSIA dictate (this was some time ago) and make very short radius turns using inclination first, before angulation, to shorten the turns. He and I knew this was verboten. I tried to talk him into trying this, but he declined.

So after he took off and I watched him for a while. He was carving well from left side of wide trail to right side of trail but I was imagining his quad pain.

I started my very different path down the hill. I did very short radius turns straight down the fall line, in a very narrow corridor. This was in heavy gloppy mashed potatoes, remember. I motored each turn by...

a. flexing the new inside leg to release the old turn.
b. throwing my new outside arm, with notable speed and force, up UP UPPP high, to help incline my whole body into the new turn.
c. Then, after getting my edges on high angles at the top of the turn, using that arm action combined with my flex-to-release, I angulated. Why? To direct pressure to the outside ski through the bottom of the turn.
d. Short turn followed short turn, thusly performed. Arm thrown upward, body inclined into new turn to edge skis fast, angulation following, new turn afterwards.
e. It was a long way down. But... my quads did not quiver... I did not tire. It took me much longer to get to the lodge than my friend. These turns were slow. I was seriously energized when I got there. He was exhausted.
f. Nice discovery.
 
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