Retraction Turns - how do you use this phrase?

[LiquidFeet]

Title says it all.

 

[Skitechniek]

Nice topic
This is retraction imho (2:06 mark):

What is the difference between flexion and retraction?

Edit: Proprietary content

 

[LiquidFeet]

In my conceptual model, there are three ways for the CoM to change places with the BoS during transition. Those are cross-over, cross-through, and cross-under.

In cross-over, the skier gets taller by extending the new outside leg. This movement moves the CoM over the skis. This is an extension turn in my conceptual model.

In cross-through, the skier stays low between turns, flexing the old outside leg/new inside leg to allow the CoM to topple across the skis (not enough to sink lower though). This is a flexion turn in my conceptual model.

In cross-under, the skier quickly flexes both legs to bring feet upward, then moves them from one side of the body to the other. The skier does not sink lower; rather, the feet are pulled up and are moved to the other side, under the body. The speed of this release can prompt maximum rebound from the skis. This is a retraction turn in my conceptual model.

 

[Skitechniek]

@LiquidFeet
How do you call the turn I call retraction turns? The turn where someone basically sits down on his ski's, like the guys in the clips I showed are doing.
And what is the guy in the PMTS Brushed carve vid doing? As in, what is it called according to you?

 

[razie]

Nah, I don't use that term. Retraction is something specific - the extreme of flexing out of a turn, driven by timing needs like in a bump run. Flexing to release is just relaxing. Retraction is useful in teaching/learning though - like in the video above - exaggerating elements of technique and ranges of movement is how we learn.

And nah, any public video is fair game for technical discussions - not to critique for the purpose of plain critique or zealot-type bashing, but to make a point on technique, I think it's all fair game. Mine included. I know my suckiness - if it's educational, I don't mind someone picking it apart, but I'll pick yours apart too, that's also fair

 

[Henry]

Does the outside knee extend to release the turn?...extension turn. Formerly known as up-unweighting.
Does the outside knee flex to release the turn?...retraction or absorption turn. Formerly known as down-unweighting. Sometimes the viewer is mislead by watching the body movement. Look only at the outside knee. Even in a retraction turn sometimes the body must go up to get the skis across under it, but the initial action is the flex.

Of course, to extend the leg needs to start flexed. And, to flex the leg needs to start near-straight.

I find the cross-over/cross-under discussion akin to the ancients debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

 

[dbostedo]

Does the outside knee extend to release the turn?...extension turn. Formerly known as up-unweighting.
Does the outside knee flex to release the turn?...retraction or absorption turn. Formerly known as down-unweighting. Sometimes the viewer is mislead by watching the body movement. Look only at the outside knee. Even in a retraction turn sometimes the body must go up to get the skis across under it, but the initial action is the flex.

Of course, to extend the leg needs to start flexed. And, to flex the leg needs to start near-straight.

I find the cross-over/cross-under discussion akin to the ancients debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

I like that. You'd have pure extension and pure retraction at the extremes, and shades of grey in between. Seems to make sense to me more than some of the "cross" terminology as well.

 

[Rod9301]

Does the outside knee extend to release the turn?...extension turn. Formerly known as up-unweighting.
Does the outside knee flex to release the turn?...retraction or absorption turn. Formerly known as down-unweighting. Sometimes the viewer is mislead by watching the body movement. Look only at the outside knee. Even in a retraction turn sometimes the body must go up to get the skis across under it, but the initial action is the flex.

Of course, to extend the leg needs to start flexed. And, to flex the leg needs to start near-straight.

I find the cross-over/cross-under discussion akin to the ancients debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Yes, the old outside leg has to be straight, which is why the flex to release works.

 

[Steve]

Does the outside knee extend to release the turn?...extension turn. Formerly known as up-unweighting.
Does the outside knee flex to release the turn?...retraction or absorption turn. Formerly known as down-unweighting. Sometimes the viewer is mislead by watching the body movement. Look only at the outside knee. Even in a retraction turn sometimes the body must go up to get the skis across under it, but the initial action is the flex.

Of course, to extend the leg needs to start flexed. And, to flex the leg needs to start near-straight.

I find the cross-over/cross-under discussion akin to the ancients debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

In an extension turn the Inside leg extends. In a retraction turn the outside leg flexes.

How can you extend the outside leg when it's already extended?

 

[dbostedo]

In an extension turn the Inside leg extends. In a retraction turn the outside leg flexes.

How can you extend the outside leg when it's already extended?

Ah... good catch. Pretty sure that it should have said "Does the inside knee extend to release the turn?"

 

[Uke]

No, I think Henry wrote just what he meant, and I think it is a very good metric. The last action of that outside leg before edge change has a huge effect on the new arc.

uke

 

[dbostedo]

No, I think Henry wrote just what he meant, and I think it is a very good metric. The last action of that outside leg before edge change has a huge effect on the new arc.

uke

Well if that's the case, flipping back to Steve's question, how do you extend the outside knee to release the current turn? (Presumably, that leg is already extended.)

 

[Uke]

If the leg is extended one flexes it first then extends it. That's how most recreational skiers have been skiing as long as I have been watching. Its the last action, the extension, that Henry is looking at.

Been skiing long enough to be familiar with the phrase, "Down, up, down."?

uke

 

[dbostedo]

If the leg is extended one flexes it first then extends it. That's how most recreational skiers have been skiing as long as I have been watching. Its the last action, the extension, that Henry is looking at.

Hmm... that's not making sense to me at all. We're only talking about what you do just before, and during, transition, right? (I.e. I'm talking about a single transition, not multiple turns.) I don't think either leg would be extended, then be flexed, then be extended again in that time frame.

Going into a transition, one leg is more flexed than the other. The question, I think, is do you flex your extended leg to transition, or do you extend your flexed leg? Or something in between. Right?

Been skiing long enough to be familiar with the phrase, "Down, up, down."?

No, I don't think so.

 

[cantunamunch]

I only use the term 'retraction' when it's two-footed retraction. Sort of like @Skitechniek shows above.

I use the term 'release' when it's just the outside leg releasing turn pressure.

 

[Uke]

In the olden days when men were men skis were wood and boots were leather it wasn't easy to get from one side of the skis to the other. One way of doing this was to sink down, spring up and come down on your new edges. It worked with the planed down twoXfours of then and it still worked as skis and boots evolved and works today. Not highly efficient but effective.

The flex then extend pattern seems to be how the vast majority of self taught skiers learn to change edges.

uke

 

[dbostedo]

In the olden days when men were men skis were wood and boots were leather it wasn't easy to get from one side of the skis to the other. One way of doing this was to sink down, spring up and come down on your new edges. It worked with the planed down twoXfours of then and it still worked as skis and boots evolved and works today. Not highly efficient but effective.

The flex then extend pattern seems to be how the vast majority of self taught skiers learn to change edges.

uke

Thanks for the additional info... I think I see what you're saying, but man would diagrams or video be helpful.

And as @cantunamunch mentions, I haven't considered turns where you might shorten both legs into the transition.

Sorry if I'm derailing this thread... I'll bow out a bit and watch now.

 

[cantunamunch]

In my conceptual model, there are three ways for the CoM to change places with the BoS during transition. Those are cross-over, cross-through, and cross-under.

In cross-over, the skier gets taller by extending the new outside leg. This movement moves the CoM over the skis. This is an extension turn in my conceptual model.

In cross-through, the skier stays low between turns, flexing the new outside leg to allow the CoM to topple across the skis (not enough to sink lower though). This is a flexion turn in my conceptual model.

In cross-under, the skier quickly flexes both legs to bring feet upward, then moves them from one side of the body to the other. The skier does not sink lower; rather, the feet are pulled up and are moved to the other side, under the body. The speed of this release can prompt maximum rebound from the skis. This is a retraction turn in my conceptual model.

Which of these are possible balance states on a Bongo board - and which aren't?

 

[cantunamunch]

Thanks for the additional info... I think I see what you're saying, but man would diagrams or video be helpful.

It might help your kinesthesia if I tell you it was commonly synchronized with blocking pole plants - you went down and forward to plant, including knee flexing, popped out of that - keeping the pole planted - and as you flexed back down the pole withdrew to poised-ready again.

Or - I can just show you next season (whichever that is).

 

[Skisailor]

I put all turns into one of 3 big buckets based on whether we use flexion or extension at transition to create the edge change.

Bucket 1: both legs extend to change edges. This does not mean they have to extend the same amount. But they are both doing the same thing - extending. This is the classic extension or up unweighting turn. The COM moves up relative to the BOS at transition.

Bucket 2: both legs flex to change edges. This does not mean they have to flex the same amount. But they are both doing the same thing - flexing. This includes flexion turns, retraction turns, down unweighting, etc. The COM moves down relative to the BOS at transition.

Bucket 3: Here the legs do different things. The outside leg extends as the inside leg flexes - at transition - to create the edge change. The COM moves across at the same height over the BOS. The pelvis and head are level - no pop up or movement down.