Recreational Sustainable Mogul style?

[cosmoliu]

Watching Josh's Fancy Falling Leaf video reminded me of a drill (Winter Park's) Bob Barnes gave us in his "Bump Camp" to get balance centered on the skis. Bob emphasized over and over during the camp that virtually none of us have our weight far enough forward. I certainly have found that I struggle with weight distribution in the bumps to this day. In order for Josh to accomplish the Fancy Falling Leaf, weight must be very centered, then varied forward to go forward, then aft to go aftward. The drill Bob gave us was doing flat 360 degree turns. First in one direction, then in the other. You will find out very quickly where your balance point is between tips and tail. There was a thread back on EpicSki where people chimed in with variations on this- go 180 degrees and ski switch for a moment, then complete the circle. Go 90 degrees, sideslip for a moment, then another 90 and ski switch briefly, then another 90 with sideslip, and finally completing the 360. Do this first on a very gentle slope- catching the downhill edge and doing a flyswatter fall can be VERY painful.

 

[Plai]

When you separate the means from the end, the end is unachievable.

I was hoping for a means to this end.

 

[Tricia]

If I take two or three mogul runs in a row I need to do something different on the next run to regroup.
I'm just not efficient enough in moguls to ski all day like the Grumps

 

[Plai]

We haven't touched...

o flexing and unweighting
o choice of turn points (part of line choice)
o weight distribution
o fore-aft balance

 

[Bad Bob]

Avoid traversing. Once you start turning in the bumps link them. When you start traversing your body position gets all out of whack; you lose separation, often find yourself on the uphill ski, and many other bad things.
Look at the videos of good bump skiers above, note body position at the top of the turn, now the end of the turn. It is the same position faced the other way.

If you can't find smaller bumps on a moderate slope look for the groomer line. There is a continual ridge that is like one endless bump to practice on. These can be a lot of fun.

 

[cosmoliu]

We haven't touched...


o weight distribution
o fore-aft balance

?Josh's Fancy Falling Leaf video?...?My post #21 above?

Drills first. Bumps later.

 

[Plai]

?Josh's Fancy Falling Leaf video?...?My post #21 above?

Drills first. Bumps later.

Missed your post #41. Thanks. Your mention of Bob's comment actually mirrors my experience quite a bit, and echo's some of my comments in other threads of how I need to be more forward on my skis.

WRT to weight distribution, I've got a on going debate in my head of evenly weighted in the bumps vs 90/10 (outside/inside) on the groomers. As entertaining as that might be, being rattle brained isn't my goal.

WRT to falling leaf... I think of that drill as edging skills and fore-aft balance --- and yes, it's part of my drills on groomers as well as flat 360s and pivot slips.

But, somehow there's a glue/binder that that's missing (from my recipe) of how this all fits well together. There's an ease/fluidity that I see in some skiers that is just beautiful to watch. [And no, I don't have video ;-]

 

[cantunamunch]

We haven't touched...
o flexing and unweighting

Notice that the "Grumpy" skier doesn't actually do all that - rather just hinges back at the knees.

o choice of turn points (part of line choice)

Isn't choice of turn points completely implicit in the both the green line and the blue line video? Green has one point and blue has two per turn? You pick the first turn point to be across the 'berm' line and the second turn point to make the flat top of the next bump?

 

[bbinder]

My "default" line is alternatively referred to in the above videos as the "blue line", Josh calls it the "outer berm" line, and I've always preferred the "buddy bump" term instead. i.e., bank a turn off the "next" (i.e,. buddy) bump. The hardest part of buddy bump skiing is realizing how much time you have to make the next turn.

At any rate, I can easily ski 10, 15k vertical of bumps a day. If you're doing it right, knees don't really feel anything. It feels relaxing.

True Dat. In the West I get less tired skiing bumps than I do skiing groomers. In the East on icy bumps my bump skiing demonstrates how poor a skier I really am.

 

[Josh Matta]

Missed your post #41. Thanks. Your mention of Bob's comment actually mirrors my experience quite a bit, and echo's some of my comments in other threads of how I need to be more forward on my skis.

WRT to weight distribution, I've got a on going debate in my head of evenly weighted in the bumps vs 90/10 (outside/inside) on the groomers. As entertaining as that might be, being rattle brained isn't my goal.

WRT to falling leaf... I think of that drill as edging skills and fore-aft balance --- and yes, it's part of my drills on groomers as well as flat 360s and pivot slips.

But, somehow there's a glue/binder that that's missing (from my recipe) of how this all fits well together. There's an ease/fluidity that I see in some skiers that is just beautiful to watch. [And no, I don't have video ;-]

the thing is glue and binder and supreme versatility using effective movements to do the desired tactics. There is no "Silver" bullet or "way" to ski bumps. its a bunch of different ways being mashed up all of the time

As to balance, its to the outside ski, almost 100 percent in packed snow bumps.

AS to forward, its not that simple, balance is movement, and you must be able to move afor and aft on the skis and make recoveries from an off balance position.

This alittle more intensity than I would like to show for the premise of this thread, but be careful with "forward" all the time, and instead think move to remain in balance.

 

[James]

Well if you want to ski bumps all day then you'll want to learn what @KingGrump calls the Taos style. Extrememly low impact. He and his wife could ski steep bumps all day and they're no spring chickens.

Essentially you ski uphill on the side/trough of a bump, get to top and plant the pole behind your foot as you release down the other side of the bump. If you time it right and release properly there's very little effort involved.

 

[skier]

When skiing more direct, absorption and extension is essential. Pulling the feet back when absorbing gives speed control with much less effort. This is why mogul coaches say to maintain constant shin pressure.

 

[KingGrump]

When skiing more direct, absorption and extension is essential. Pulling the feet back when absorbing gives speed control with much less effort. This is why mogul coaches say to maintain constant shin pressure.

Much depends on the bumps.
MJ bumps. Yeah, that will work.
Taos bumps, Nah, not gonna work.

 

[Josh Matta]

When skiing more direct, absorption and extension is essential. Pulling the feet back when absorbing gives speed control with much less effort. This is why mogul coaches say to maintain constant shin pressure.

who cares about comp bump skiing?

 

[Plai]

Well if you want to ski bumps all day then you'll want to learn what @KingGrump calls the Taos style. Extrememly low impact. He and his wife could ski steep bumps all day and they're no spring chickens.

Essentially you ski uphill on the side/trough of a bump, get to top and plant the pole behind your foot as you release down the other side of the bump. If you time it right and release properly there's very little effort involved.

Thanks for the words. They highlight details in the video that didn't register in @mdf post #6.

 

[cosmoliu]

I will relate one "aha" moment I had a couple of years back, probably 3 years after Bob's Bump Camp, and thinking I had solved the weight forward problem by virtue of having attended the camp. In retrospect that thought was only in my head. I was in the bumps on Park City's Thaynes run when I REALLY tried driving my downhill shin into the boot tongue as I came around under the bump I had just turned around. I experienced a slowing of speed that I had never felt before in that situation. And up to then did not know that such slowing was even possible. It was as if that shin was pressing on an imaginary brake pedal- the more pressure on the boot tongue in a given turn, the more slowing. And the more control. It was a true revelation! I think that right up to that point I had not really taken the weight forward idea far enough- at that point in the turn my weight had always been too far aft. As we all know, weight on the tails at the end of the turn will cause the skis to scoot out from under you. I guess that over 25+ years of thinking I was skiing the bumps I had just assumed that that was how that point in a bump turn was supposed to feel- skis scooting out from under. The feeling of speed control was completely new. Even now, I only get that feeling about 8/10 bump turns at best, so there is still much improvement to be made.

There are many mantras to express the same end result of starting the turn with weight forward: "tips on the snow", "reverse bicycle pedal move", "dolphin turn". Perhaps the most useful visualization for me has been a variation on the dolphin turn/move. I try to imagine that as I tip the shovels of my skis into the trough at the beginning of the turn that I am trying to kick myself in the butt with my heel pieces. This takes quite a leap of faith the first couple of times because, at least for me, it feels like you are launching yourself into thin air. No visual grounding from seeing the tips of the skis or even the slope below. It can be very disconcerting. But I have found that's what it takes to get that damn weight far enough forward. So anyway, I think that despite a good start to the turn with the tips on the snow and engaging the trough between the bumps, I was still somehow managing to shift my weight back before getting into the belly of the turn described in the paragraph above. It's devilishly hard to put it all together, like Josh mentioned above.

 

[skier]

Much depends on the bumps.
MJ bumps. Yeah, that will work.
Taos bumps, Nah, not gonna work.

Wow, Taos sounds like a pretty miserable place.

 

[skier]

who cares about comp bump skiing?

Only cool people....

 

[Josh Matta]

I never see anyone comp skiing at Stowe....

Too many round lines.....

 

[KevinF]

Regarding @Josh Matta 's post that there is not "one way" to ski bumps.

I was skiing with Robin Barnes (National dev team member) one time.. I think she's the one who used the "buddy bump" term. At any rate, a comment I remember he making regarding bump lines, etc. is that "moguls are like ice cream... there's a lot of flavors and they're always coming up with new ones".

The more options you have.. the smoother you can make it look. At the New England Gathering last year we had a day at Mad River Glen where our group was faced with the most diabolical crappy shaped bumps I've ever seen. Like, what do I do now???