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jack97

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Most WC and top competitors start skiing at a very early age. Their DNA are way different than the rest of us. I used to have dreams of playing in the NBA when I was a kid. Just wasn't in my DNA, I suppose. We all have constraints.
Perseverance in the context of mastering something difficult is part of one's DNA as well. It applies to both academics and athletics... and its not about competition. Someone looking to enjoy the bumps needs some of that desire to get better with their skiing, otherwise stay in the flats or ski hero bumps when the opportunity lends itself.
 

KingGrump

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Perseverance in the context of mastering something difficult is part of one's DNA as well. It applies to both academics and athletics.
Man, that just sounds painful.

At 52, don't think the OP has much time left to persevere.
 

KingGrump

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Man, you guys are taking the fun out of skiing. It's getting to sound way worst than that four letter work that starts with a 'W'.

One can always do it the hard way. I am sure we all can find even more difficult ways to doing almost anything. But why, when there are much easier paths in front of us.
 

geepers

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A question I've been meaning to ask for some time....

How steep are the WC mogul course and how steep are the runs used recreational WC-style bumpers?

Matt Graham is a serious WC competitor having won events and getting the silver medal at the last Olypmics. He reckons Toppers Dream at Perisher is "...one of the most challenging mogul courses in the world..." (0:20 in the vid).


Now that's my only reference.

Before it became a bump training facility the Toppers pitch used to be open to the public and we can still ski the pitch along side it. It's not by any stretch of the imagination very steep. It's at most a decent blue run. Further it has a very good run-out area at the base.

Compared to Toppers, the vast majority of the bump runs at the resort I ski in Canada are seriously steeper and end abruptly in narrow cat tracks before the woods-of-no-return. Not the sort of ending that is a good idea to reach carrying speed.

Now I'm sure that young WC or wannabe bumpers would rip those runs with speed and style. I'm less sure about the more mature bumpers. There's another factor in play in here - see Matt in the vid above at 0:40. Sooner or later we all screw up.
 

Ogg

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^It looks pretty typical for a WC course. They're not usually super steep. The bottom is a bit flat but no worse than other courses I've seen. I think having a regular sustained pitch is more critical than how steep it actually is. A lot of steeper terrain has broken pitches and irregular fall lines that would not work for a modern WC mogul course but make for more interesting recreational bump skiing.
 

CoPow

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Let's kill the "GOAT", "best" technique, and bashing about style please. That's not helpful nor the purpose of this thread.

Deb Armstrong sustainable bump video just published a few days ago

This reminds me of the bumps for boomers blue line technique
Bumps are "high impact" only when you get in the backseat, manhandle the skis to turn(bad for the knees and hard on the quads), and because you manhandled the skis you don't slow down enough and crash in to the next bump (bad for all the joints involved). This can happen whether you take the "blue" line or zipper line. Given the same slope, zipper line requires you to move more quickly and make more turns in a same timeframe so it's more difficult and aerobically demanding but it's not inherently high impact.

The blue line can be really bad for your body too if you take it like bobsleigh or slalom race (and screw it up). What I find unexplained in those "sustainable" videos is how they are using the shoulder of the bumps to smear and control the speed. Before hitting the next bump their speed is in check so they are not crashing into it. They are also not in the backseat and turning their skis with force. Those are the secret of low impact, not the line choice. Mind you though, taking the blue line can give you more time to do all that so I'm not saying those videos are bad. But you could easily be in bobsleigh mode, with high edge angle and a lot of speed, by taking blue line as well. On the other hand, you could go straight down, smearing and slowly, and be low impact.
 
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CoPow

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Talking about the edge angle, on the first video she's showing how low angle her ski is on the uphill side of the next bump, but actually where you want your skis to be low angle is the downhill side of the current bump. Uphill side of the next bump is banked so you can't smear/kill speed there. If I take that line without smearing the downhill side of the current bump, I'll be like a NASCAR race car which is fun too but not exactly low impact. Again, not saying the video is bad, just elaborating.
 

jack97

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What I find unexplained in those "sustainable" videos is how they are using the shoulder of the bumps to smear and control the speed.
That's the crux of what confuses me with the word "sustainable", It looks fluid and efficient because of the demonstrator's skills. Line section can only take you so far, there's techniques that needs to be mastered to make it low impact.
 

CalG

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The movement that helps me the most to smooth out the bumps is keeping the ski tips engaged with the snow.
That means pulling up the tails, pedaling the bike backwards, or a whole lot of descriptions from a whole lot of perspectives.

Just keep those tips on the snow, and the entire bump run is just smoother,....better.... more enjoyable.
 

CalG

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There were a couple P40's.
The original P40 F1 was red with cream color. GS ski. (2000/01) I had that in 193. They also made other P40's in that series. I believe there might have been a creamsicle, orangey/white colored slalom one.
GS was pretty stiff, not a great mogul ski but you use what you've got.
They then went to a P40 series that was black with colored stripes. Yellow, slalom, Red, Green. I had a slalom one .
I have a pair of the creamsicle flavor, 193s IIRC, short for the time, The daily driver of the day was K2 MSLs, at 203
 

Mike King

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It's interesting how some topics just bring up the same old arguments spit out with the same old passion. One of them is helmets (or have the helmet protagonists finally won that skirmish?) and the other is bump skiing technique.

My thought is this: there are many different techniques that can be used to successfully navigate a mogul run. Some of them work better than others depending on slope, snow condition, roundness of the bumps themselves and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, the skill level of the pilot.

I've come to believe that much of the skill blend of WC mogul skiers represents the pinnacle of technique and the most importantly part of that is the dynamic range they have in their flexion and extension movements. This dynamic range, and the ability to change edges while in an extremely flexed position, is hugely useful not only in bump skiing, but also in skiing steeps, in dynamic short turns wherever they might be, in medium radius turns, and, well, just about anywhere.

But not everyone has that ability (currently) to ski with great degrees of dynamic range. Does that mean that one should avoid skiing bumps because of this deficiency in technique? Nope. In fact, I'd argue that one can use the skill inventory and blend that they currently have, but work on dynamic range in the bumps to improve their skiing everywhere.

The fifth fundamental: regulate the magnitude of pressure created by the ski/snow interface, is, in my opinion, the elusive piece that ties the other skills together. It's a critical component in obtaining ski performance, where the ski travels along its length across the snow rather than across its width. And getting the tail to follow the tip is the best way to smooth out the ride -- it certainly might be one way to define "sustainable" skiing.

So, might we get off of the "my way is the only sustainable way to ski bumps" mantra? What I want to see is more people skiing the bumps. I'd like to see them working to improve their versatility. Sometimes that might be the Taos, Deb Armstrong, or WC method. But anyone, can improve their skiing everywhere by working on their dynamic range. And having that dynamic range will reduce the impact on your body, prolong your ski life, and help glue all of the skills together everywhere on the mountain,

Mike
 

CoPow

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That's the crux of what confuses me with the word "sustainable", It looks fluid and efficient because of the demonstrator's skills. Line section can only take you so far, there's techniques that needs to be mastered to make it low impact.
I guess blue line DOES get you so far and zipper IS more difficult. So yeah, while zipper is not high impact per se, I understand the confusion.

the ski travels along its length across the snow rather than across its width.
I agree there is a lot of different ways to skin a cat, and carving cross under short turns can be utilized with little or no modification in many situations, but I'd make it "the ski travels any direction you want including along its length, across its width, and anything in between", especially in this thread's context. I used to make only carvy turns in the bumps. After spending 30-60 min in the morning doing pivot slip variations for a couple of dozen days, my bump skiing became much better.

That said, if I were an instructor and spent an entire 2 hour lesson on pivot slips and at the end of the lesson told my clients "OK, you guys do this for 1 hour in the morning every time you ski for next 2 years. I promise you will be a better bump skier. See you 3 years later!", I have a feeling I won't get popular.
 
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CalG

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It's interesting how some topics just bring up the same old arguments spit out with the same old passion. One of them is helmets (or have the helmet protagonists finally won that skirmish?) and the other is bump skiing technique.

My thought is this: there are many different techniques that can be used to successfully navigate a mogul run. Some of them work better than others depending on slope, snow condition, roundness of the bumps themselves and, MOST IMPORTANTLY, the skill level of the pilot.

I've come to believe that much of the skill blend of WC mogul skiers represents the pinnacle of technique and the most importantly part of that is the dynamic range they have in their flexion and extension movements. This dynamic range, and the ability to change edges while in an extremely flexed position, is hugely useful not only in bump skiing, but also in skiing steeps, in dynamic short turns wherever they might be, in medium radius turns, and, well, just about anywhere.

But not everyone has that ability (currently) to ski with great degrees of dynamic range. Does that mean that one should avoid skiing bumps because of this deficiency in technique? Nope. In fact, I'd argue that one can use the skill inventory and blend that they currently have, but work on dynamic range in the bumps to improve their skiing everywhere.

The fifth fundamental: regulate the magnitude of pressure created by the ski/snow interface, is, in my opinion, the elusive piece that ties the other skills together. It's a critical component in obtaining ski performance, where the ski travels along its length across the snow rather than across its width. And getting the tail to follow the tip is the best way to smooth out the ride -- it certainly might be one way to define "sustainable" skiing.

So, might we get off of the "my way is the only sustainable way to ski bumps" mantra? What I want to see is more people skiing the bumps. I'd like to see them working to improve their versatility. Sometimes that might be the Taos, Deb Armstrong, or WC method. But anyone, can improve their skiing everywhere by working on their dynamic range. And having that dynamic range will reduce the impact on your body, prolong your ski life, and help glue all of the skills together everywhere on the mountain,

Mike
I have no ambition to ski bumps like the WC competitors do.

For me, It is not a competition, I'm not trying to beat the bumps, I'm not even trying to not let the bumps beat me.
I'm out there to enjoy every minute! Sometimes the best thing is a bump trail empty of any other skiers. ;-)
 

Mike King

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I guess blue line DOES get you so far and zipper IS more difficult. So yeah, while zipper is not high impact per se, I understand the confusion.


I agree there is a lot of different ways to skin a cat, and carving cross under short turns can be utilized with little or no modification in many situations, but I'd make it "the ski travels any direction you want including along its length, across its width, and anything in between", especially in this thread's context. I used to make only carvy turns in the bumps. After spending 30-60 min in the morning doing pivot slip variations for a couple of dozen days, my bump skiing became much better.

That said, if I were an instructor and spent an entire 2 hour lesson on pivot slips and at the end of the lesson told my clients "OK, you guys do this for 1 hour in the morning every time you ski for next 2 years. I promise you will be a better bump skier. See you 3 years later!", I have a feeling I won't get popular.
No doubt slipping a ski is a critical skill in skiing -- after all, the fundamental is: "Control edge angles through a combination of inclination and angulation." Mermer Blakesley, a multiple PSIA demo team member and selector of the demo team, required clinicians (attendees) at the National Academy to demonstrate competence in three essential tasks before taking them into terrain, one of which was pivot slips. And while slipping a ski is an essential competence and can up your game in many circumstances, it is not the way to achieve the best ride from the ski. Getting the terrain to come across the length of the ski, rather than the width, is the way to even out the terrain in many circumstances.

Mike
 

CoPow

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Getting the terrain to come across the length of the ski, rather than the width, is the way to even out the terrain in many circumstances.
Absolutely. In "many" situations it is. Like if the snow is deep, I want my skis to glide almost completely along the length. Not to mention when I want to carve. In bumps though, a lot of times I want them to be a bit more sideways although rarely 90 degrees. Maybe like between 0 to 40 degrees? The secret is being able to modulate between that 0-40 degrees at will.

The problem is, this skill is hard, if not impossible, to see from outside. You can point out things like "hey your inside ski is too forward, pull your inside foot back" and things like that for carving turns or just about any turns. But it's kinda hard to point out what's wrong when a person is bit jerky doing, say, switch pivot slips. It's mostly very subtle edge and pressure control that you probably don't see.

So I said "unexplained" up there, but at the same time didn't say those videos are bad because, I can't really explain it myself, haha. I just did a bunch of drills and "got" it. If you or anybody here have a silver bullet in that, please share. By the way, I love HH's phantom foot method and think it is kind of a silver bullet in teaching people high quality turns. My feeling, which could definitely be wrong, though, is he doesn't like to do pivot slip variations all that much, and I think they help a lot especially in bumps, but at the same time like I said above, I understand that making my clients do them like a football coach probably doesn't work if I were an instructor.
 
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