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Rate the Turns 2
- Thread starter karlo
- Start date
What I can say is that focusing on "pulling the inside ski back" held me back one entire season, for instance, because I missed the little notice with "don't pull the hip back too"...
I'm quoting this part of your post for emphasis since this burned me too (for multiple seasons in my case). It also goes to point that you really need to be VERY specific about skiing movements and how to properly do them. This is why I have such an issue with "outcome-based" ski instruction speak. Of course there are always multiple ways to get the job done, but some are far more efficient and achieve much better results. So we really need to be more specific if at all possible.
@karlo - to answer your question about the strength to re-center being more about speed, the answer is "yes". We need strength to be fast. Of course I can eventually fully re-center after letting my skis "jet" forward into the transition, but then I'm long out of the "corridor" before getting enough tip engagement to come back around. In fact, that's a great way to challenge yourself when you're doing short-swing type turns. Define a corridor and do your best to stay in it for at least a dozen turns. A great test to show whether you truly have command and control over the radius and frequency of your turns.
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2015
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Yes, but I haven't watched the videos yet. I'm just starting to be able to think about skiing after all the upheaval in the last few weeks keeping my business going. I've bookmarked the page to return to, which may not be until next season.
Yes, excellent, I think the quoted phrase in particular is key. This is something I've needed to focus on and practice a lot in my skiing, and still need to focus on and practice a lot more.
These things matter more: ...flexing the new inside leg to release and simultaneously tipping its ankle to the little toe edge....
This video cap comparison is really instructive. The gross angles that Karlo and Reilly are creating don't look all that different. However, Reilly is traveling a lot faster than Karlo. So at a similar angle of inclination, Reilly is more committed to the outside ski. As the old turn ends, Reilly has more of his body mass to the outside of that line that Tom Gellie talked about in the first long lecture embedded HERE: https://www.pugski.com/threads/tom-gellies-videos.19456/#post-462103 . He is thus able to topple more quickly down the slope upon releasing the old outside ski.
Note that when Reilly starts flexing, he is SIMULTANEOUSLY starting to tip (untip?) the skis toward flat. You can see the change in the angles of the bases from the first frame to the second. Karlo, not so much. His movement is sequential--flex first, tip second. This sort of works. Flexing does promote one's ability to begin that important tipping movement, even though it follows a fraction of a second later. However, it is slower than starting the tipping simultaneously with starting the flexing. Note that Reilly displays more flexing (CHANGE in flexion) of the old outside leg than of the old inside leg. Karlo displays equal flexing, or maybe more flexing of the old inside leg because he's still turning left.
The delay in tipping tends to make one look hunchy and leaned in at transition. Any deficiency in outside ski commitment at the finish of the old turn, and any delay in releasing and tipping over the old outside ski, will impede strong toppling into the new turn and early creation of edge angles in the new turn. Then the skier will be motivated to make extension movements to make up for the deficiency in impetus toward the center of the new turn. I think this is pretty much what Tom Gellie said in that lecture.
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My thinking as to a general framework for skills progression, for no one in particular, could be anyone, could be me:
o Practice foot tipping movements--statically, and slow motion on a variety of slopes, in a variety of patterns, including garlands.
o Practice lots of releases from a standing start, including a strong focus on moving the balance quickly onto the new outside ski. Take these into slow motion turns.
o Do loads of one ski drills. Get comfortable doing long big toe edge traverses, and long little toe edge traverses, both right and left foot. Skiing is about moving from one sort of balance to another. Maybe in everyday skiing we don't hang out in that little toe balance for very long, but it's important to be able to do it, and to be able to move smoothly and with confidence, at will, between the different balances.
o First nail the foot movement patterns, then add in middle and upper body movements to complement them. I think of adjustments to the ski-snow interaction as being based on movements of the feet--but everything we do with our feet requires action of the upper body to balance against it.
o Start very slow. Then improve skills with faster, medium radius turns. Then progressively shorter turns.
o Practice foot tipping movements--statically, and slow motion on a variety of slopes, in a variety of patterns, including garlands.
o Practice lots of releases from a standing start, including a strong focus on moving the balance quickly onto the new outside ski. Take these into slow motion turns.
o Do loads of one ski drills. Get comfortable doing long big toe edge traverses, and long little toe edge traverses, both right and left foot. Skiing is about moving from one sort of balance to another. Maybe in everyday skiing we don't hang out in that little toe balance for very long, but it's important to be able to do it, and to be able to move smoothly and with confidence, at will, between the different balances.
o First nail the foot movement patterns, then add in middle and upper body movements to complement them. I think of adjustments to the ski-snow interaction as being based on movements of the feet--but everything we do with our feet requires action of the upper body to balance against it.
o Start very slow. Then improve skills with faster, medium radius turns. Then progressively shorter turns.
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This is the best detailed description of what happens when one brings the feet back in at the end of the turn that I've seen. I'm especially happy to read this explanation of why the tips come up at release.
“engaging”, is that different from setting the edge? I guess it is. Reilly has a delayed setting of edge, at which point the skis carve. But, engaging early, having tipped, doesn’t mean it’s a carve. The skis can still swing if pressure is towards the tip and the tails are light??
I can see them now, on a dance floor. You know the type.
I’m not a very good multitasker. I guess that’s why, when I was doing flex to release (not video’s), that’s why, as I increased the cadence, I was unable to make turns and started going straight down the hill.
I don’t get it. What is outside ski “commitment”? I gather that is not pressuring.
Call it weight distribution directed to the outside ski, call it pressure, call it distribution of balance, call it force. I prefer "balance" or "force," actually it's RECEIVING force (centripetal force and gravity). Whatever you call it, it goes quickly to something like 95%/5% biased to the outside ski. If you have that level of commitment, you could make a very small adjustment and just pick up the inside ski and ride out the turn on only the outside ski. Your quote of my post truncated my language on this. For clarification, the full sentence I wrote was, "Any DEFICIENCY in outside ski commitment at the finish of the old turn, and any delay in releasing and tipping over the old outside ski, will impede strong toppling into the new turn and early creation of edge angles in the new turn.
I'm not insisting that a skier has to be 95/5 all the time, but consider and explore what are the effects of being more outside ski committed, or less so.
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2017
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- 128
This is a very interesting observation. Many on this forum claim that flexion and tipping are one in the same and that flexion causes tipping. It is interesting that one can flex and not cause tipping. Makes you wonder if the flexion is the cause of the tipping or if it is something else? And if one can flex without tipping, what is causing the tipping? It also makes you ask the question, what is the important movement in transition? The tipping/untipping or the flexing? Interesting.
aka "sufficient counterbalancing" - you can't "topple" if the weight is never on the leg that is "taken away" via flexing.
Or at least some on this forum so interpret what others are saying. One can flex without tipping the feet, but one can't tip the feet without flexing. Not much. Just try it both ways, standing on a flat surface, preferably in ski boots. Flexion doesn't in and of itself involve any lateral movement. You have to add that lateral tipping of the feet, with effects moving up the chain to other joints, to get tipping of the skis.
It's not that flexion causes tipping, it's that without flexion in your hips, knees and ankles, the range of movement available for edging is restricted. Tipping is created by rotating the femurs whilst counter rotating the lower leg and pronating/supinating the feet. Both flexion and tipping/untipping are equally important for the transition. I don't think you will see any static moments in any Reilly's turns.
Certainly you can do it by extending the old inside leg and pushing off the hill. Some people teach that, and if you like it and it works for you, OK. You just won't be skiing like Reilly, or skiing like Tom Gellie teaches.
@karlo, how about some definitions of terms.
Toppling usually refers to what the CoM does when it is released from circular travel and continues on its pathway due to momentum, unimpeded. This usually happens when a skier shortens the old outside leg by flexing its joints. People may disagree on what happens at the ankle dorsiflexion-wise when discussing this issue. You don't have to ankle-tip to the little toe edge when shortening that leg.
Pushing (some prefer the term projecting) the CoM over the skis by extending the new outside leg does end up moving the CoM in a similar direction as toppling, but that trajectory starts out different. It's a muscular projection of the CoM to a high point over the outside ski whereupon it is released, and at that point the projected movement of the CoM blends with its momentum.
Toppling and pushing feel different, look different, and produce different underfoot pressures through the top half of the turn.
Toppling happens when one flexes to release.
Pushing happens when one extends to release.
Toppling allows the underfoot pressure to progressively grow until apex. The new outside ski will engage at the top of the turn as it tips onto new edges because the new inside ski has been lightened by the flexion. That inside ski may even be partly off the snow. The skier may float, very light, at the instant of release.
Pushing works more like skating. The new outside ski gets more initial underfoot pressure compared to toppling because of the leg's extension. The new outside ski will engage at the top of the turn as it tips onto new edges.
Engage in its strictest sense means the edged ski grips the snow to effectively generate the turn shape the skier desires.
Edgeset (closely paraphrased from Bob Barnes' Complete Encyclopedia of Skiing) is a sudden engagement of the edge of a ski produced by sinking or collapsing and quickly pressuring and edging the outside ski. It produces rebound as the ski grabs, with minimal skidding, little grinding sound, and little snow flying. It is charateristic of slalom or short-swing turns where the idea of "quick on-and-off the edges" describes the movement well.
Toppling usually refers to what the CoM does when it is released from circular travel and continues on its pathway due to momentum, unimpeded. This usually happens when a skier shortens the old outside leg by flexing its joints. People may disagree on what happens at the ankle dorsiflexion-wise when discussing this issue. You don't have to ankle-tip to the little toe edge when shortening that leg.
Pushing (some prefer the term projecting) the CoM over the skis by extending the new outside leg does end up moving the CoM in a similar direction as toppling, but that trajectory starts out different. It's a muscular projection of the CoM to a high point over the outside ski whereupon it is released, and at that point the projected movement of the CoM blends with its momentum.
Toppling and pushing feel different, look different, and produce different underfoot pressures through the top half of the turn.
Toppling happens when one flexes to release.
Pushing happens when one extends to release.
Toppling allows the underfoot pressure to progressively grow until apex. The new outside ski will engage at the top of the turn as it tips onto new edges because the new inside ski has been lightened by the flexion. That inside ski may even be partly off the snow. The skier may float, very light, at the instant of release.
Pushing works more like skating. The new outside ski gets more initial underfoot pressure compared to toppling because of the leg's extension. The new outside ski will engage at the top of the turn as it tips onto new edges.
Engage in its strictest sense means the edged ski grips the snow to effectively generate the turn shape the skier desires.
Edgeset (closely paraphrased from Bob Barnes' Complete Encyclopedia of Skiing) is a sudden engagement of the edge of a ski produced by sinking or collapsing and quickly pressuring and edging the outside ski. It produces rebound as the ski grabs, with minimal skidding, little grinding sound, and little snow flying. It is charateristic of slalom or short-swing turns where the idea of "quick on-and-off the edges" describes the movement well.
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But this is no longer truly "toppling" if you use ILE to push your mass over.
Skiers should think of this concept like a 4-legged stool. If a 4-legged stool is typically balanced across all 4 legs, then the removal of 1 leg will not cause the stool to topple over. However, if more weight is placed on one side of the stool and then one of the legs directly supporting that weight is removed, the stool will topple over.
Now take this concept back to skiing. If the skier's weight is more on the inside ski without sufficient counterbalancing (e.g. putting the weight over the stance leg), then the "removal" of the stance/outside ski (by flexing) is not going to cause the skier's mass to "topple" into the new turn and the skier will probably resort to using ILE to get their mass moved over.
Bob's definition of short swing turns in his Complete Encyclopedia is thorough. This description doesn't match what I see in Reilly's turns. Honestly, I don't know why Reilly calls his short swings "Classic."
I'm quoting Bob below.
Short Swing is linked, short, quick turns involving brief, harsh edgesets late in the turn, as opposed to a more gradual build-up of pressure and guiding of the skis. Short swing appears almost as a hop from foot to foot. The outside ski is not pressured until it is turned nearly to the direction it will face at the end of the turn, usually well after the fall line.
This is a classic slalom turn, ofen described as "quick on-and-off the edges." In a sense, short-swing turns are neither carved nor skidded -- the ski does not slice through the arc of the turn, but neither should it skid once the edge is finally engaged. Short swing is an effective tactic for icy clopes, where the sharp stabs of the ski edges hold better than smooth, prolonged attempts to carve. They are also an effective tactic in breakable crust or other extremely difficult, heavy, and inconsistent conditions, as most of the turn occurs in the air between edge sets. True short-swing turns are highly athletic. Dealing accurately with the powerful rebound of a real slalom ski in these turns is beyond the capabilities of all but very good skiers.
I'm quoting Bob below.
Short Swing is linked, short, quick turns involving brief, harsh edgesets late in the turn, as opposed to a more gradual build-up of pressure and guiding of the skis. Short swing appears almost as a hop from foot to foot. The outside ski is not pressured until it is turned nearly to the direction it will face at the end of the turn, usually well after the fall line.
This is a classic slalom turn, ofen described as "quick on-and-off the edges." In a sense, short-swing turns are neither carved nor skidded -- the ski does not slice through the arc of the turn, but neither should it skid once the edge is finally engaged. Short swing is an effective tactic for icy clopes, where the sharp stabs of the ski edges hold better than smooth, prolonged attempts to carve. They are also an effective tactic in breakable crust or other extremely difficult, heavy, and inconsistent conditions, as most of the turn occurs in the air between edge sets. True short-swing turns are highly athletic. Dealing accurately with the powerful rebound of a real slalom ski in these turns is beyond the capabilities of all but very good skiers.
Interesting. I think we see once again that it's always important that there are agreed upon definitions to improve the discussion and provide clarity.
I see that we posted at the same time regarding toppling.
Yeah, Bob's book has some age on it. His definition of short swings is of the turns made back on straight skis, but they can be made on shaped skis too. His definition is truly of classic short swings. Float, drift, sting!
I keep wondering why Reilly labelled his super short turns "Classic." In what sense are they classic? He does not look like he's on and off the edges, nor almost hopping. Not at all. I think of his short swings as a new alternative to the old version.
I keep wondering why Reilly labelled his super short turns "Classic." In what sense are they classic? He does not look like he's on and off the edges, nor almost hopping. Not at all. I think of his short swings as a new alternative to the old version.