Rate the Turns 2

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karlo

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That'll definitely work for arc-to-arc carved turns.
But Karlo wants shorter radius turns than that.
He's after "short swings."
It's just a timing difference, delaying the engagement so the ski redirects some before engaging...
A short swing definitely means a delay in engagement. But, it doesn’t mean that the ski is not tipped on edge very early in the turn. I’m fact, Reilly says that’s the first thing he his thinking and doing, tipping on edge starting with ankles.

I don't believe that the short swing turns Reilly is making have anything to do with "pivot slips"...

The turns that Reilly is making do not make use of active rotary...

in this case Reilly's focus is on tipping and flexion and using the resulting rebound via "passive rotary". In this case it's the design of the skis that cause the skis to change direction (turn), not active rotary fed from leg twisting.
I think Noodler hit the nail on the head. Reilly actually is very explicit, that he is not thinking of active rotary. Instead, he his thinking about pushing his feet forward, advancing the leg. In so doing, there is rotary. I see it like pushing the door open. Is there rotary at the hinge? Yes. But, we don’t think of it as rotating the hinge.


In my “Short Turns 1”, I was thinking “advance the leg forward”, trying to feel what he‘s talking about. In “Short Turns 2”, I really felt it towards the end.

In my “Short Turns 1”, I was thinking “advance the leg forward”, trying to feel what he‘s talking about. In “Short Turns 2”, I really felt it towards the end. Here they are again for convenience.



it's accurate edging that is holding him (karlo) back
Yup, that needs work. And, I found that it is not at all obvious when to set the edge, to end the swing. I was all over the place.
 

Noodler

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@karlo - After watching your second video again, I think there's a "fast track" to getting most of the way there. It was already mentioned by @LiquidFeet that you're using ILE (Inside Leg Extension) to push your upper body into the new turn. We use the idea of "flex to match", where the old stance/outside leg flexes to the same amount already present in the inside leg to release the old turn. I believe this turn thought of "matching" the amount of flex in your inside leg as you relax the old stance leg and tip your feet for the new turn might do the trick in eliminating the ILE.

I have used this "swing thought" before with some friends when trying to focus on NOT extending doesn't do the trick. For many people, using a "positive" action (do this) works much better than a "negative" action (don't do that). This change could help you get "short" at the transition while remaining "long" at the apex.
 

Noodler

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In the How to Swing, from Projected Production’s Legacy Part 1 video to my untrained eye it looks like Reilly is moving his feet fore and aft as though he's skiing moguls but he's obviously on groomed terrain. It looks like the movement pattern that dolphin turns encourage but more subtle. Is this to be emulated with high level short turns?
This is true, however there are a lot of caveats here; both with the skier's actual intentions vs. movements and how camera angles can fool us. Will provide more detail tomorrow...
 

Erik Timmerman

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Moving feet fore and aft. You know, one of the last lessons I taught before the apocalypse began was short-swing turns with @KevinF and at one point I told him that to me, at the top of the turn it feels like my feet are behind me. I don't think that they really are, but it's how the short turns feel.

Sidenote, my short-swings felt really good that day and I had to fight all narcissism to keep myself from asking Kevin to shoot a quick of video of me in a lesson that is about him. :D
 

Mike King

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In the How to Swing, from Projected Production’s Legacy Part 1 video to my untrained eye it looks like Reilly is moving his feet fore and aft as though he's skiing moguls but he's obviously on groomed terrain. It looks like the movement pattern that dolphin turns encourage but more subtle. Is this to be emulated with high level short turns?
I'm not exactly sure of the relationships, but it is my belief that Reilly, Paul Lorenz, and Tom Gellie teach, ski, and work on their skiing together. Tom Gellie has several videos where he talks about fore/aft balance and the biomechanics involved. In particular, he believes good skiing involves being "front-side heavy" in the top of the turn and "back-side heavy" in the end of the turn. He shows how the best slalom skiers -- Herscher, Vlahova, Kristofferson, and Schiffrin -- are bringing their feet through the finish of the turn.

My current coach, who coaches with the Rookies Academy in China, has been working with me on a similar result.

Mike
 

KevinF

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Moving feet fore and aft. You know, one of the last lessons I taught before the apocalypse began was short-swing turns with @KevinF and at one point I told him that to me, at the top of the turn it feels like my feet are behind me. I don't think that they really are, but it's how the short turns feel.

Sidenote, my short-swings felt really good that day and I had to fight all narcissism to keep myself from asking Kevin to shoot a quick of video of me in a lesson that is about him. :D
This from a guy who says "demo" is an acronym that stands for "don't expect much, ok"? :ogbiggrin:

It's all about how you phrase the request:
  1. Hey Kev, why don't you get some video of me so I can spend the summer admiring my awesomeness? :nono:
  2. Hey Kev, why don't you get some video of me so we can compare my illustrious skiing against... whatever it is you're doing. :huh:
  3. Hey Kev, why don't you get some video of me so I can spend the summer evaluating what I'm doing wrong compared to you. :yahoo:
 

JESinstr

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The rotation of the femur in the hip socket that you are referring to is a consequence of the foot tipping happening from the ground up. It is NOT the active rotation that is driven from the twisting of the leg over a flat ski in order to create the pivot move. Very, very different. This has been discussed ad infinitum on these pages, but learning the difference in how and when rotation should happen in the hip joints is critical to learning how to use skis as they're designed to be used.
To your point, Ref JF beginning at 4:05 in the below vid. I think it speaks for itself

IMO if you can't do this drill you have turn development issues and there are many "advanced" skiers, including instructors, that are in that boat.

Other than shortening, the job of the inside leg is to create space for the outside to work either through directional alignment, or as in this case, the wedge formation. In dynamic short radius turns this is especially important. In Rielly's short turn vid, this is exactly what he is doing. Any noticeable movement of his inside knee (hence the perceived "O") is to create space, nothing more, nothing less.

 
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karlo

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using a "positive" action (do this) works much better than a "negative" action (don't do that)
Absolutely
the idea of "flex to match"
I like that one. Then, the flex to release has a reference point. And, @LiquidFeet pointing out that Reilly odd doing flex to release, rather than, I thought, an extension, what an eye opener. I have to imagine that extension gets in the way of a swing, at least at the pace Reilly is doing it.
he believes good skiing involves being "front-side heavy" in the top of the turn and "back-side heavy" in the end of the turn
That’s actually a drill that Reilly discusses and demonstrates, one that makes the ski front side heavy, back side light, at the top of the turn.
 

LiquidFeet

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@karlo ....For many people, using a "positive" action (do this) works much better than a "negative" action (don't do that). This change could help you get "short" at the transition while remaining "long" at the apex.
^^What Noodler said. Do not eliminate, replace. Overwrite the brain's habitual pathways with the new movement; do it with repetition of the new movement.

Karlo says he can do flex-to-release in slow turns. Let's see some of those, @karlo. Do you have old video?
 
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LiquidFeet

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This is true, however there are a lot of caveats here; both with the skier's actual intentions vs. movements and how camera angles can fool us. Will provide more detail tomorrow...
Profile camera angle requires a moving videographer. One who has a gimbal is helpful. These folks are hard to find. But to see the aft-fore movement of the feet you need an on-going side view. The videographer needs to be skiing alongside. That recent video upthread does a good job of showing this aft-fore movement of the feet.
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In short swing turns, the turns need to be pretty much completed. Skis need to point left and right at end of turns.

Each camera view hides what it can't see. What you can't see in these side views is how he is bringing his feet back across the hill as he slides them (or it, the outside foot in particular) "forward". And the body needs to keep facing downhill as the skis are brought across the hill. A drone shot from above would be revealing.
 
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LiquidFeet

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I'm not exactly sure of the relationships, but it is my belief that Reilly, Paul Lorenz, and Tom Gellie teach, ski, and work on their skiing together. Tom Gellie has several videos where he talks about fore/aft balance and the biomechanics involved. In particular, he believes good skiing involves being "front-side heavy" in the top of the turn and "back-side heavy" in the end of the turn. He shows how the best slalom skiers -- Herscher, Vlahova, Kristofferson, and Schiffrin -- are bringing their feet through the finish of the turn...
@karlo, you keep mentioning moving your feet forward. You posted:
"....he is thinking about pushing his feet forward, advancing the leg.....In my “Short Turns 1”, I was thinking “advance the leg forward”, trying to feel what he‘s talking about. In “Short Turns 2”, I really felt it towards the end."

Pushing the outside foot forward, or both feet, should be at the end of the turn, as you are bringing your feet back in from the side and pointing the skis to the left or right while your body points downhill.

There is the potential for a misunderstanding here. Feet should not end up downhill of you with you leaning uphill, weight on the old inside ski, your torso facing to the side of the trail. You are doing that in that video I used for the frameshots.

You haven't mentioned pulling the feet back. Back, Forward. That's the rhythm you're looking for. Both are essential. Pulling the feet back should happen at the start of the turn, which will make it feel like your feet are behind your hips. Erik mentions this here:
....at the top of the turn it feels like my feet are behind me. I don't think that they really are, but it's how the short turns feel.....
You have other things to work on before you work on this aspect of Reilly's turns (separation), IMO. You need separation instead of staying square, and you need flexion instead of extension. These you can work on without the rhythmic aft-fore movement of the feet.
 
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Corgski

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I don't have the right skills to analyse the turns, but there is something about the way you move that looks like you are struggling with strength imbalances. It may just be alignment, but if I recall correctly you did have hip/leg issues you were trying to address. Have all those been resolved?
 

LiquidFeet

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....Other than shortening, the job of the inside leg is to create space for the outside to work either through directional alignment, or as in this case, the wedge formation. In dynamic short radius turns this is especially important. In Rielly's short turn vid, this is exactly what he is doing. Any noticeable movement of his inside knee (hence the perceived "O") is to create space, nothing more, nothing less.
@JESinstr, I mostly agree with you.

There's the unwanted version of rotary movement, where the skier intentionally points the skis downhill at the start of the turn without getting onto new edges. Karlo should not be doing this.

Then there's the O-frame movement of the new inside leg. It happens along with the ankle-tipping of the new inside foot inside the boot. This is quite different from pivoting the skis to point downhill while they are flat.

That O-frame requires femur rotation of the new inside leg. I don't think anyone disagrees with me on that. And Reilly does it, that's clear from the videos.

So why do the O-frame? You are saying to get that leg out of the way. To "clear" the inside leg/ski, so there won't be a wedge entry to the turn. Yes, it does that. But that's not all it does.

If the skier also pulls that inside foot/ski back, at the same time as doing the ankle tipping and the knee-O-framing, which Karlo should do, the little toe edge of the shovel of that new inside ski will get pressed down against the snow. It will stay pressed down through the top half of the turn. This tip pressure will have an effect on the turn entry. It will help sharpen it. It's works like a paddle in a kayak when you insert it vertically into the water to the side; dray makes the kayak turn.

Karlo is after short, short turns. Sharp turning at the top is a good thing.

Karlo can pull the new inside foot back while ankle-tipping and O-framing, or he can pull both feet back while ankle-tipping and O-framing. I think the inside-foot pull-back needs to be learned first, as the aft-forward motion of the feet is not as essential as the other things Karlo needs to build into these turns.
 
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karlo

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Karlo says he can do flex-to-release in slow turns. Let's see some of those, @karlo. Do you have old video?
Sorry, not video. I can do them for slow short turns. I can do them for high-angled medium turns. But, I have to say to myself "do flex-to-release". It's not my default method of skiing
You haven't mentioned pulling the feet back. Back, Forward. That's the rhythm you're looking for. Both are essential. Pulling the feet back should happen at the start of the turn, which will make it feel like your feet are behind your hips. Erik mentions this
Pull back or leave behind, but yes, they need to be back. @Prosper is right, these short turns are a bit like mogul skiing. In fact, if I had to teach mogul skiing when there are no moguls, we'd be working on flex-to-release short turns.
there is something about the way you move that looks like you are struggling with strength imbalances. It may just be alignment, but if I recall correctly you did have hip/leg issues you were trying to address. Have all those been resolved?
I've come a very long way, but still not 100%. Left hip issue. That same week, after boot fitting, I tried traversing on my uphill ski, on my little toe edge. No problem with might right ski. With my left, I was struggling to figure out what muscle(s) to use in order to stay on edge. Maybe it was the boot. But, could very well be me.
 

Noodler

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@karlo - there's been lots of discussion about the movement of the feet fore/aft through the phases of the turn, but in my view concerning yourself about this aspect of a ski turn is really putting the cart well before the horse.

In fact, my experience during this season was that unless you are exceptionally strong and well balanced throughout the turn, you should NOT actively push (or even allow) your feet to get forward of your hips in the back half of the turn. I know that's not what you're seeing in the best skiers in the world (the top 1%), but I know that I don't have the strength to pull my feet back under me fast enough at transition in order to execute quick short swing turns. What works much better for us "regular folk" is to focus on never letting yourself get back (aka letting your feet jet forward at the end of the turn). What actually happens is that your feet probably will still get ahead a bit in the end of the turn, but please don't actively try to push them forward. At least not yet in your skiing development.

Why do I recommend this? Because once your feet are forward of your hips, you will be unable to get strong tip engagement out of the skis. If you don't have strong tip engagement at the transition/start of the new turn, then you will end up traversing a bit across the slope (while you're getting the feet pulled back/upper body forward). Eventually the skis will start coming around once the tips finally start to engage. This totally works against what you are trying to do to create a short swing turn. Without tip engagement, the only other way to get the skis to change direction (aka "turn") is to pivot them. If you resort to pivoting on a flat ski you won't get any power out of the skis (you're not edging them) and your tails wash out (moving uphill) as you create the turn.
 

Noodler

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Profile camera angle requires a moving videographer. One who has a gimbal is helpful. These folks are hard to find. But to see the aft-fore movement of the feet you need an on-going side view. The videographer needs to be skiing alongside. That recent video upthread does a good job of showing this aft-fore movement of the feet.
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In short swing turns, the turns need to be pretty much completed. Skis need to point left and right at end of turns.

Each camera view hides what it can't see. What you can't see in these side views is how he is bringing his feet back across the hill as he slides them (or it, the outside foot in particular) "forward". And the body needs to keep facing downhill as the skis are brought across the hill. A drone shot from above would be revealing.
You saved me a lot of typing. ;)
 

Steve

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Regarding the feet getting ahead and the need to strongly pull them back:
I have discussed the concept of re-centering with a race coach I know. It seems to me that contrary to the "everything happens from the legs down" thinking, that there is upper body movement involved in the re-centering movement. Presumably middle-body (core) primarily.

@Noodler do you agree with this? Does that still require all of the strength you mention?

I'm not that strong and I can re-center easily. Now I'm not claiming that I'm doing it well or right, in fact what I'm doing may be awful, but it has been successful from my perspective, at getting the tips of the skis engaged early.
 

LiquidFeet

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@karlo, here are frame shots of you moving your feet forward at the end of a turn in your second video. Your head is facing downhill, not your upper body (hips/shoulders) -- something to work on. Your weight is uphill of both feet because your torso is still tilted uphill -- something to work on. The way you finish your turn allows your downhill ski to skid away from your uphill ski in that second frame; notice that your feet are moving apart. There is not enough weight on your outside ski, because your CoM is over the inside ski.

To fix the excessive inside ski weighting, you need to bring both feet back up under you during this part of a turn, right after the fall line. As you do this, both legs will get shorter, and your weight will be directed at the outside ski if in addition you get your torso upright instead of holding onto the lean. You'll be half way there into the new turn without releasing, because your skis will be coming up right under your hips. Doing this might feel like you are sliding that outside foot "forward"-- in the direction it is pointing. But thinking about bringing both feet back up under you will probably work best.
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Here's what this part of the turn looks like when Reilly does it. He's pulling both feet inward to bring them under him. His torso straightens up by that second image as his feet come back in. You can do this! But it's going to be very different from what you currently are doing.

I would not think too much about moving one or two feet "forward." These things matter more: upper body facing downhill and staying as vertical as possible, staying low between turns, flexing the new inside leg to release and simultaneously tipping its ankle to the little toe edge, and bringing those feet back up under you after the fall line.
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p.s. It feels good to be thinking about skiing instead of the virus.
 
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