Rate the Turns 2

[Noodler]

Regarding the order for learning, I suggest that since we ski from the ground/snow up, we should also learn the proper movements in that order. Thus, tipping comes first (with the required flexion to support the tipping). Upper body separation (counteracting and counterbalancing) are in support of the tipping, so you really need to understand the movements required to tip well, before worrying about what your upper body is doing. The CA/CB work comes into play more naturally when the "light bulb" turns on for the skier as they begin to understand that to tip well there are things that their upper body will need to do in support of the tipping.

 

[razie]

I don’t agree that you must flex to tip. My instructor mentor would use pattern breaker drills so that you can do one without the other. You should be able to use any of the skills on its own or in combination with the others. I’m not saying flex to release is bad, but it’s not the only way. I’d want to see more before condemning his boots and boot fitter too.

hey, we're blaming him for not skiing like Reilly, having the boots and the fitter share some blame seems like it would do him a favour

So what would be your pattern breaker drill here? Rollerblades with long legs? Or phantoms?

@karlo - that's a good one. Do roller blades with long legs. Then try them with flexed legs. Decide for yourself how edging works better.


This simple drill even looks closer to the turns you're trying to make, no? But, whatever you do, do *not* get yellow pants!!

Then drag your poles and let the feet go more to the side... and you're off to the races:


There. Problem fixed in two runs!

 

[dbostedo]

But, whatever you do, do *not* get yellow pants!!

What!?! That's terrible advice. I love my yellow (ish) pants!

 

[karlo]

watch this video. It'll cost you $50,

That's pricey. It's $7US for a month of the Projected Productions videos. Is that $50US? It isn't clear to me.

he'd have to fix the boots,

Ok, Ok! I was given the name of someone in CO. Who are those I can go to in the East?

I don’t agree that you must flex to tip.

Isn't that railroad tracks? I tip using ankles for that. No flexing there.

The hardest part is getting the point where the skier can initiate on the new inside ski, delaying pressuring the outside

So, at start of turn, I am pressuring the inside ski, then tipping it to initiate the turn?

Michaela Shiffrin- Sochi_inside ski recovery

Loved that recovery. I can recover on an inside ski. In fact, last year, when my left hip was really, really weak, I had a tendency, unconciously, to ski on my right inside ski. I think I'm pretty good at skiing on the inside ski when I have to.

Karlo, how's your pivot slip coming along

then flex-to-release second

Pivot slip, I can do it. I wish I could get more rotation. Flex to release I can do if cadence is not too fast. So, no problem for medium turns. Short turns ok, if tempo is slower. I would not do flex-to-release for the higher tempo short turns in my Short Turns 1. Like I said, the sequence of things would break down. And, I think I would have an easier time with doing a short-turn flex-to-release if the turn were, as Reilly describes, a race-carve. The Classic Short Swing, with the slippy-slidy, but not pushed-out top of a turn, with a later edgeset, that seems hard when done with flex-to-release.

tipping comes first (with the required flexion to support the tipping). Upper body separation (counteracting and counterbalancing) are in support of the tipping, so you really need to understand the movements required to tip well, before worrying about what your upper body is doing

Railroad track tipping first? Then, upper body separation

Do roller blades with long legs. Then try them with flexed legs

I would rather do flexed legs

then drag your poles and let the feet go more to the side.

I like that one. If I don't flex-to-release, the poles will come up. When I do flex to release, my visualization is of a ballroom dancer gliding across the dance floor. Just video from waist up and it looks like the person is just rolling across the floor standing on a skateboard.

Can bootfitting be done from a social distance?

 

[Mike King]

@karlo, yep, it's $50 US. It is pricey. It is also far, far, far superior to the Projected Productions stuff. And I have all of the PP stuff.

Mike

 

[Noodler]

Can bootfitting be done from a social distance?

Sure, we do that all the time here at PugSki...

 

[karlo]

@karlo, yep, it's $50 US. It is pricey. It is also far, far, far superior to the Projected Productions stuff. And I have all of the PP stuff.

Mike

I guess I’ll put my refund for the cancelled MA 201 course towards this.

 

[razie]

Make up your mind

 

[vindibona1]

re: Michaela... Loved that recovery. I can recover on an inside ski. In fact, last year, when my left hip was really, really weak, I had a tendency, unconciously, to ski on my right inside ski. I think I'm pretty good at skiing on the inside ski when I have to.

You have potential. Nothing to unlearn; just resequence so you can expand your skills. The fix is easier than it looks like on paper. I'll say to you what Roger Renstrom (Snowbird) said to me when I showed up skiing just like you...
"You ski pretty well. But if you're going to get better your going to have to change some things"... And then he showed me... and the rest is history.

It's nice talking about stuff as many of us are hunkered down. But the reality is that for most of us the season is over. But just wait until next season.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....Pivot slip, I can do it. I wish I could get more rotation. Flex to release I can do if cadence is not too fast.....

@karlo, if you can do pivot slips and you can do a flexion release at a slow cadence, then you can learn to do the super short radius turns that Reilly calls Classic Short Swings.

Do this next season when you get back on snow:

1. Do a run of pivot slips, and get video of it. Slow cadence pivots is fine.
2. Flex your downhill leg to start each pivot instead of extending your uphill leg.
3. Make it a goal to keep your head the same distance from the snow, as if pivot-slipping down a low-ceiling tunnel.
4. Keep your downhill speed constant; no fast-slow business, no edge-set.
5. Post your video.

If you can do pivot slips this way, it won't be hard to move from that to Reilly's turns. We can talk you through it.

 

[karlo]

Do this next season when you get back on snow:

Hoping it’ll be soon, at the indoor center in NJ.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Hoping it’ll be soon, at the indoor center in NJ.

Excellent.

 

[razie]

@karlo, if you can do pivot slips and you can do a flexion release at a slow cadence, then you can learn to do the super short radius turns that Reilly calls Classic Short Swings.

Do this next season when you get back on snow:

1. Do a run of pivot slips, and get video of it. Slow cadence pivots is fine.
2. Flex your downhill leg to start each pivot instead of extending your uphill leg.
3. Make it a goal to keep your head the same distance from the snow, as if pivot-slipping down a low-ceiling tunnel.
4. Keep your downhill speed constant; no fast-slow business, no edge-set.
5. Post your video.

If you can do pivot slips this way, it won't be hard to move from that to Reilly's turns. We can talk you through it.

Hey - that is like 4 runs, my progression was faster... just 2 runs here it is in just 1 run: start with roller blades and then send the feet out to the side, as far as you dare to go, we call it "the heel wiggle" or "tipping only turns" - probably the best demonstration of how flexing increases the range of motion for foot tipping:

 

[LiquidFeet]

Hey - that is like 4 runs, my progression was faster... just 2 runs here it is in just 1 run: start with roller blades and then send the feet out to the side at the same rhythm, as far as you dare to go, we call it "the heel wiggle" or "tipping only turns" - probably the best demonstration of how flexing increases the range of motion for foot tipping:

OK. That'll definitely work for arc-to-arc carved turns.
Nice video. This is how I start my carved turns.

But Karlo wants shorter radius turns than that.
He's after "short swings."

I still like flexion-driven pivot slips as a starter.
He would begin with pivoting flattish ski,
then he'll need to add edging to morph the pivots
into real turns.

With your option (I call these "little wigglies" or "knee wagging"),
he'd begin with edged skis that are carving, arc-to-arc, and
then have to delete some edging and
add the inside leg rotation (O-frame, go bowlegged)
...all this while moving at speed.
So several more steps than two.
I think that's going to be harder to accomplish.

 

[razie]

I don't see a difference honestly between carved and good shorts. It's just a timing difference, delaying the engagement so the ski redirects some before engaging... coupled with the speed down the slope, you get any turn shape you want. I think Reilly sees it the same way, in the Legacy.

In my mind carved are easier to learn and progress with, as you're standing on one ski - I find skidded turns harder to learn advanced technique with, as there's too much going on (driving school doesn't start with a drifting session - that tends to be towards the end)...

Then, when you're ok with carving, shorts come easy - maybe I'm obnoxious with this video, but this honestly was the first time he tried quick short turns and you see him start like crap and he dials it in by the end of the run, as he gets some rebound to balance against:



p.s. I wouldn't call them "knee wagging" that takes focus away from the feet, where it belongs...

 

[Noodler]

The challenge here is that I don't believe that the short swing turns Reilly is making have anything to do with "pivot slips".

My understanding of PSIA defined pivot slips are that they're primarily focused on using active rotary movement in the hip socket to change the direction of the skis. The turns that Reilly is making do not make use of active rotary. I know everyone sees what they want to see in a skiing video (and a lot of that has to do with their "base" knowledge and their own skiing skills), but in this case Reilly's focus is on tipping and flexion and using the resulting rebound via "passive rotary". In this case it's the design of the skis that cause the skis to change direction (turn), not active rotary fed from leg twisting.

 

[LiquidFeet]

^^I know. But.

There's that O-frame. Tip at the ankle first, inside the boot.
Then increase the tipping by moving the new inside knee outward to go bowlegged. It's clear in the frame shots that Reilly does this. .
Do not rotate the hips when going bowlegged; keep them pointing downhill.
Knees will move farther apart than feet, causing the O-frame.
Doing this is not possible without rotating that inside femur in its hip socket.

You may be right, starting with pivot slips may mean the skier rotates both femurs actively ... and too much. But rotating one, somewhat, is part of the desired turn.

 

[Noodler]

^^I know. But.

There's that O-frame. Tip at the ankle first, inside the boot.
Then increase the tipping by moving the new inside knee outward to go bowlegged. It's clear in the frame shots that Reilly does this. .
Do not rotate the hips when going bowlegged; keep them pointing downhill.
Knees will move farther apart than feet, causing the O-frame.
Doing this is not possible without rotating that inside femur in its hip socket.

You may be right, starting with pivot slips may mean the skier rotates both femurs actively ... and too much. But rotating one, somewhat, is part of the desired turn.

The rotation of the femur in the hip socket that you are referring to is a consequence of the foot tipping happening from the ground up. It is NOT the active rotation that is driven from the twisting of the leg over a flat ski in order to create the pivot move. Very, very different. This has been discussed ad infinitum on these pages, but learning the difference in how and when rotation should happen in the hip joints is critical to learning how to use skis as they're designed to be used.

 

[LiquidFeet]

One can intentionally rotate the femur in the hip socket while tipping the ankle in the boot, with both working together. Or one can tip the ankle until ROM runs out, then keep going with the edging by moving the knee out; as the knee moves the fermur in the hip socket rotates.

One is direct femur rotation. The other is indirect femur rotation. Both look the same to the observer.

The question becomes, does the ski know the difference?

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Well, I will say that as far as a pivot slip goes, I don't really see it as "active rotary", to me it feels like it is more about very subtle use of ski design and of anticipation. So I don't see it being contrary to helping Karlo do what he wants to do, but I also think his separation in the video he shows is surprisingly good. Sure Reilly's is better, but I think it's accurate edging that is holding him back more than anything else.