Rate the Turns 2

[Mike King]

Rather than elaborate on what I said, here's what you should think about. As I said, the movement sequence was the source of the problem, leading to the other issues. I'm going to try to make this as simple as possible. Try to engage the new corresponding edges in your turns BEFORE transferring pressure to the outside ski...

... That will require you to rethink a lot of things. Your body position, to release and re-engage will have to be much more downhill to unlock your feet. You will have to be in a lower position, with ankles and knees remaining bent to control edge angles. Then, as the new turn develops, you can extend INTO the hi-c of the turn (as LF's illustration called it). With the skis momentarily continuing in the direction of the old turn, you can then utilize momentum and centrifugal/centripetal forces to apply pressure to the already edged skis, as they begin to change directions, creating natural pressure where the momentum intersects with the direction change. It will also allow you to angulate in, because the momentum provides the lateral force and the edges hold the platform. Simultaneously you then SOFTEN THE INSIDE SKI TO ALLOW PRESSURE TO MAINLY GO TO THE OUTSIDE SKI AS YOU CONTINUE TO EXTEND THE OUTSIDE SKI. [If you extend too early, then you've prematurely used up your ability to fine-tune and adjust the pressure.] Then, as the turn progressed past the development stage of the turn, you will be begin flexing/compressing to allow the skis to continue to edge, but not be overpressured- as you transition into the subsequent turn, etc.

What you were doing was moving to the new outside ski too early, extending too early, failing to keep your mass moving aggressively downhill, interfering with the entire sequence of the turn. This gave up the dynamic shaping of the top of the turn, which leads to the dynamics of the rest of the turn. Now, when you "reseqence" your movement patterns you can still pressure the outside ski early (somewhat) if you want, but you will do that from a lower, flexed position and you'll be able to use the natural forces to control most of the aspects of the turns. Mostly the same mechanics, different order- with more control and dynamics. The only difference in the mechanics themselves that might need some enhancement is the concept of softening the inside to add more pressure to the outside. The proviso of that is that the natural forces have to be there first.

I hope this helps.
P.S.... I've already gone back and edited this four times to help with clarity... and I'm still not sure I got everything right the way I want to express it. As I said... I"m a terrible proof reader.

@vindibona1, I disagree with your suggestion to change edges before exchanging the weight. In my opinion, and in the coaching I've received from our trainers and demo team members here in Aspen, we want to, at a minimum, start the process of exchanging weight, and in performance turns actually complete the exchange of pressure, prior to changing edges. With modern ski design, we want that new outside ski edged high in the turn so that it can accept pressure high in the turn. That allows the ski to bend high in the turn and is more likely to result in higher ski performance,.

IMO, the issue with @karlo's turns is that he is moving away from the ski by dumping his body inside the turn rather than traveling with the new outside ski, tipping it to establish edge and a platform that can accept pressure, and bending it high in the turn.

Mike

 

[karlo]

I'm seeing very early weight transfer by McGlashan. It clearly works for him, although it's not the only way one could do it.

I also think I see early weight transfer, though I am not sure that others are saying that isn't happening. The reason why I think he has early weight transfer is that he slightly flexes his inside leg when he tips; and, he tips early, hence early weight transfer. Sorry, pressure.

 

[karlo]

IMO, the issue with @karlo's turns is that he is moving away from the ski by dumping his body inside the turn rather than traveling with the new outside ski, tipping it to establish edge and a platform that can accept pressure, and bending it high in the turn.

the skier needs to learn to release the turns first (before pressure transfer) and then think about pressuring the outside ski after. Releasing the outside ski first would require changing the body positions is and CoM has to be/move toward/at the end of the turn so the edges can be released BEFORE engaging the new outside ski.

What you two observe seem to be different. But, the prescriptions are sounding very similar to me, be patient about pressuring and tipping the new outside ski.

 

[Mike King]

What you two observe seem to be different. But, the prescriptions are sounding very similar to me, be patient about pressuring and tipping the new outside ski.

Actually, what we see is similar, but what we think you should do about it is different.

 

[LiquidFeet]

...and @karlo, here's what I think you need to do, pulled from that frame-by-frame analysis, in case you missed it.

Granted, this is a lot of words and identifies many things to do that are quite different from what you are currently doing. Maybe this is too much to deal with. But if you really want to match Reilly's turns, you need to learn a whole new movement pattern. That involves a lot of parts. There is no simple path to follow, no single thing to do that will get you there.

1. RELEASE
To match Reilly's turns, you need to flex the new inside leg without extending the new outside leg. While doing this you need to keep torso facing downhill and hold shoulders level. Your body will topple across your skis without you needing to push it there and the new turn will start. Your weight will transfer to the new outside ski by default when you flex the new inside leg to release the old turn.

2. TOP of TURN
To match Reilly's turns, you need to use your new inside foot and leg to shape the top of the turn, without involving the upper body or the new outside leg.
This means using all of Reilly's movements:
--hold/move inside boot next to outside boot; almost close enough to touch
--tip the inside foot at the ankle (inside the boot) to its little toe edge
--keep flexing inside leg, shorter, shorter, to bring your inside knee closer up under your body, up towards your armpit; do not let that knee slide laterally out to the side as you do now
--roll inside knee into the turn (go bowlegged) while keeping it under the body. This is femur rotation. This involves pointing your inside thigh in the direction of the turn, aka going bowlegged. Yes, there will be an O-frame.
--Going bowlegged and holding your inside boot up next to your outside boot will get your knees farther apart than your feet, and will delete your A-frame. There is no need to cant your boots soles or buy new boots.
All these movements together will make your skis tip, engage, and start turning downhill.

3. APEX
To match Reilly's turns, you need to use your inside foot and leg to develop your maximum edge angles. Reilly's combination of movements (listed above) will direct pressure to your outside ski. Keep torso vertical, keep your inside knee under you, keep tipping your inside ski, keep flexing your inside leg, and keep rolling that inside knee outward. The more you flex that inside leg and the more you point that knee in the direction of the turn, the lower your body will drop over that foot and the higher your edge angles will be at the fall line. No need to pay attention to your outside leg.

4. BOTTOM of TURN
To match Reilly's turns, flex both legs to bring your feet back up under you immediately after the fall line. Continue to tip the inside foot to its little toe edge as you do this; the edged and engaged skis will do the turning as you shorten both legs. Keep your torso vertical and facing downhill. As your feet get up under you, with your torso over them, flex-to-release for the new turn. Body will topple.

 

[JESinstr]

@vindibona1, I disagree with your suggestion to change edges before exchanging the weight. In my opinion, and in the coaching I've received from our trainers and demo team members here in Aspen, we want to, at a minimum, start the process of exchanging weight, and in performance turns actually complete the exchange of pressure, prior to changing edges. With modern ski design, we want that new outside ski edged high in the turn so that it can accept pressure high in the turn. That allows the ski to bend high in the turn and is more likely to result in higher ski performance,.

IMO, the issue with @karlo's turns is that he is moving away from the ski by dumping his body inside the turn rather than traveling with the new outside ski, tipping it to establish edge and a platform that can accept pressure, and bending it high in the turn.

Mike

...and here's what I think you need to do, pulled from that frame-by-frame analysis, in case you missed it.

Granted, this is a lot of words and many things to do that are quite different from what you are currently doing. Maybe this is too much to deal with. But if you really want to match Reilly's turns, you need to learn a whole new movement pattern, which involves lots of parts. There is no simple path to follow, no single thing to do that will get you there. What he does is totally different from what you do.

1. RELEASE
To match Reilly's turns, you need to flex the new inside leg without extending the new outside leg. While doing this you need to keep torso facing downhill and hold shoulders level. Your body will topple across your skis without you needing to push it there and the new turn will start.

2. TOP of TURN
To match Reilly's turns, you need to use your new inside foot and leg to shape the top of the turn, without involving the upper body or the new outside leg.
This means using all of Reilly's movements:
--hold/move inside boot next to outside boot
--tip the inside foot at the ankle (inside the boot) to its little toe edge
--keep flexing inside leg, shorter, shorter, to bring your inside knee closer up under your body, up towards your armpit; do not slide that knee laterally out to the side as you do now
--roll inside knee into the turn (go bowlegged) while keeping it under the body. This is femur rotation. This involves pointing your inside thigh in the direction of the turn, aka going bowlegged.
--Going bowlegged and holding your inside boot up next to your outside boot will get your knees farther apart than your feet, and will delete your A-frame. There is no need to cant your boots soles.

3. APEX
To match Reilly's turns, you need to use your inside foot and leg to get your edge angles at apex. Reilly's combination of movements (listed above) will direct pressure to your outside ski, which will in turn delete the A-frame and the inside tip divergence. Pay particular attention to these: keep torso vertical, keep your inside knee under you, and keep rolling that inside knee outward.

4. BOTTOM of TURN
To match Reilly's turns, bring your feet back up under you after the fall line while continuing to tip the inside ski. Keep your torso vertical and facing downhill. When feet get up under you, flex-to-release for the new turn.

From 40,000 ft...... See the difference? LF focuses on release while Mike focuses on creation and management of force.
You can't properly release from a force you don't control.
I am in Mike's camp on this one.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@JESinstr, you are right, we are in disagreement about how to learn to make Reilly's turns. I'm OK with that. It makes for good discussion.

However, surely you agree that the movements Reilly is making control the forces. I'm focusing on those movements, not the forces, because the movements need to be learned and put into action by Karlo if he is ever to match Reilly's turns and Reilly's management of forces.

I doubt that focusing on forces instead of movements will lead Karlo to discover and implement the specific movements that Reilly is making. I tend to teach movements first. I know others teach other things first (what the skis are doing, the skier's intentions regarding speed, upcoming turn shape and line, pressure manipulation from one phase of a turn to the next, or even metaphors that embody what the desired turns feel like - holistically).

Attending to movements first has helped me best in my skiing, so that's how I teach.

The frame-by-frame analysis I posted upthread has images that show what Reilly is doing. That's how I've generated this list of movements. I looked at Reilly's turns -- up close, very close.

Tedious minutiae? Yep. But the path is long and there are many steps to take if Karlo is to get there. Has anybody else reading this thread traveled this path, and learned these turns? Let's hear from you.

@karlo, where is your thinking on how to proceed?

 

[LiquidFeet]

Thank you! I think your stills of McGlashan are of what he calls a race-carve short turn. I see McGlashan’s “Classic Short Swing” as an extension turn with edge set later in the turn. Here are stills from the video, Legacy Part 1.
In my Short Turns 1, I am attempting to make that turn.

That said, I still have much to do. Care to compare my Classic Short Swing to his?

Karlo, how did you get the video cut up like this?

 

[vindibona1]

@vindibona1, I disagree with your suggestion to change edges before exchanging the weight. In my opinion, and in the coaching I've received from our trainers and demo team members here in Aspen, we want to, at a minimum, start the process of exchanging weight, and in performance turns actually complete the exchange of pressure, prior to changing edges. With modern ski design, we want that new outside ski edged high in the turn so that it can accept pressure high in the turn. That allows the ski to bend high in the turn and is more likely to result in higher ski performance,.

IMO, the issue with @karlo's turns is that he is moving away from the ski by dumping his body inside the turn rather than traveling with the new outside ski, tipping it to establish edge and a platform that can accept pressure, and bending it high in the turn.

Mike

You and I agree on the outcome and many aspects. But my suggestion is REMEDIAL, and not necessarily the end goal. I want to help the skier get to where he can be on high edge angle just as you do. His SEQUENCING IS OFF, which prevents his CoM from traveling as it should with the desired turn shape, which is preventing him from reaching that high edge angle. He has to be in a position to extend into the beginnings of the turn while allowing all the forces to help him do what rather than, as you say, "dumping his body inside the turn". You see, releasing and reengaging the edges will FORCE HIS BODY INTO THE CORRECT POSITION so the direction of his CoM isn't fighting the natural forces that allow for platform, high edge angle and ski dynamics. He's got to train his body position first. And to do that, you often have to go to the opposite of what the skier does habitually- then blend it back. Once that starts to kick into muscle memory the focus of application of pressure can be directed to L/R flexion-extension. The natural forces have to be generated to do that. And with that, starting the turn with a pressure transfer and extension defeats all the natural forces. Versatility and ease of skiing is the ultimate end goal, which is why I approach this problem as described.

 

[vindibona1]

What you two observe seem to be different. But, the prescriptions are sounding very similar to me, be patient about pressuring and tipping the new outside ski.

I think Mike and I agree on several things. But let me just say, I used to ski just like you. I had the benefit of of working my way through the exact problems you're experiencing and have worked with many others in the same boat. But, as always, there are more ways than one to address issues. And sometimes you need to experience several before finding the one that clicks for you. And, sometimes the written word lacks the depth of on-snow demonstration.

 

[Mike King]

You and I agree on the outcome and many aspects. But my suggestion is REMEDIAL, and not necessarily the end goal. I want to help the skier get to where he can be on high edge angle just as you do. His SEQUENCING IS OFF, which prevents his CoM from traveling as it should with the desired turn shape, which is preventing him from reaching that high edge angle. He has to be in a position to extend into the beginnings of the turn while allowing all the forces to help him do what rather than, as you say, "dumping his body inside the turn". You see, releasing and reengaging the edges will FORCE HIS BODY INTO THE CORRECT POSITION so the direction of his CoM isn't fighting the natural forces that allow for platform, high edge angle and ski dynamics. He's got to train his body position first. And to do that, you often have to go to the opposite of what the skier does habitually- then blend it back. Once that starts to kick into muscle memory the focus of application of pressure can be directed to L/R flexion-extension. The natural forces have to be generated to do that. And with that, starting the turn with a pressure transfer and extension defeats all the natural forces. Versatility and ease of skiing is the ultimate end goal, which is why I approach this problem as described.

Fair enough. But I think if you are going to use a remedial approach for a time to achieve a different result with the intention of going back to another place, it is important to mention that as a temporary objective. Otherwise, folk may get the idea that the remedial approach is the desired long-term approach.

Mike

 

[karlo]

@LiquidFeet, since I’m a visual learner, you would have lost me at “Your body will topple across your skis without you needing to...” in Step 1 had you been talking to me. Reading it, the concepts and suggestions have time to make their way to my cerebral cortex for processing and visualization.

@karlo, where is your thinking on how to proceed?

First, I’ll keep my skis and feet closer together and use

flex-to-release

Then, because this turn’s edgeset isn’t until later in the turn, I’ll play with Paul Lorenz’s modified crab walk, described and shown in his segment, just so I get more familiar with where to set the edge. Then, I’ve got to work on that O-frame and all the other stuff you list. The unfortunate thing is that even our new indoor ski center in NJ is closed. So, I’ll just keep watching the clip of Reilly over and over again, as the visual learner.

So, I thought this turn was an extension turn and you’re right, it’s a flex to release turn. Reilly’s other types of short turns, he goes through them one by one, are more clearly flex to release turns as the turn becomes more carved at the top. No video of me doing it, but I did some short turns with flex to release. No problem when the cadence is slower. But, when I picked it up to his cadence, it fell apart. I ended up just going straight down the hill, flexing, extending, flexing. Everything in betweem, totally lost. Wish I had a video. So funny.

as you say, "dumping his body inside the turn"

Yup, I dump.

Karlo, how did you get the video cut up like this?

From my phone, I played the video. I paused it and took a screenshot. Then I pressed play, then pause again right away and took another screenshot. Kept doing that for the whole sequence. That’s why the control buttons are in each still. Then, I assembled the stills using an app named Quik, added music, added credits slide, then saved as a video into my Photo library. Then, I of course uploaded to YouTube. Next time, I should insert a numbers, like @Deadslow did in the original Rate the Turns.

 

[karlo]

with @karlo's turns is that he is moving away from the ski by dumping his body inside the turn

Yup, I’m dumping.

I think that, to do Reilly’s turn, now that I look at it more closely, requires the flex to release turn. I’m envisioning that it would be difficult to not shift weight to the old inside ski before tipping, as the old outside leg flexes while the old inside leg remains unchanged in flex. But, I also visualize that it is an outcome of a flex to release, not an objective in itself. But, I’m just visualizing. Don’t know for sure.

 

[razie]

Here you go. View attachment 97352

There are a lot of details to work on, for sure... but we can summarize this as: your new outside leg is long way too early, when it's flat, so you have no way to control and fine tune edge angle creation and engagement and everything - your only option is to drop the hip, to create edge angles.

Sounds simple, just one thing to fix , but I didn't find it either simple or quick to fix however, that gives you a simple path to direct your improvement and assessment and self-feedback when you analyze your skiing. The solution, after fixing the equipment as well as possible, is to change your movement pattern: release with flexion and tip the skis on edge, instead of pushing them into the new angles from the hip.

 

[Mike King]

@karlo, watch this video. It'll cost you $50, but it is well worth it. And watch the rest of his stuff as well.

No More Skidding - How to finish turns strongly

Ski lesson on carving

bigpictureskiing.com

 

[Erik Timmerman]

Personally, I think the target for now needs to be something a bit more attainable. Just get both feet tipping together and move from there.

 

[razie]

Personally, I think the target for now needs to be something a bit more attainable. Just get both feet tipping together and move from there.

yeah... I see it kind of a cicken-egg - you can't really tip the outside foot if the leg is long. I mean you could stand on the outside leg and do phantoms, which are great - but even for that he'd have to fix the boots, looks like. Flexing and tipping kind'a go together... so in a way, I guess we're saying the same thing: flex so you can tip and then tip the feet.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I don’t agree that you must flex to tip. My instructor mentor would use pattern breaker drills so that you can do one without the other. You should be able to use any of the skills on its own or in combination with the others. I’m not saying flex to release is bad, but it’s not the only way. I’d want to see more before condemning his boots and boot fitter too.

 

[vindibona1]

Fair enough. But I think if you are going to use a remedial approach for a time to achieve a different result with the intention of going back to another place, it is important to mention that as a temporary objective. Otherwise, folk may get the idea that the remedial approach is the desired long-term approach.

Mike

The internet is a terrible place for learning where a demonstration is so much more effective. I've seen Karlos' condition in many, many skiers. The hardest part is getting the point where the skier can initiate on the new inside ski, delaying pressuring the outside. Once we get to that point, it is merely a question of pressuring the outside (by softening the inside) earlier and earlier in the turn. You see, it is BODY POSITION that allows pressure transfer as does momentum and centriful/centripetal forces (combined with turn-shape/direction change).

While racing is a bit of a different animal than recreational skiing, it still has the same foundations. What I want to illustrate is that early pressure transfer, while useful in some situations is not necessarily what we should be striving for. Correct dynamic body position allows maximum versatility and even helps recover when things don't go as planned. As an example of this, I present Michaela's 2014 2nd run at Sochi. I'm not sure if I've embedded the video properly, but starting at around 5:54, you'll see her lose the platform but still get the turn going on the inside ski. Additionally, if you note, her outside ski doesn't engage before the inside. They engage largely simultaneously, but because of her perfect body position, much of the time the inside engages a nano-second before the outside.

Michaela Shiffrin- Sochi_inside ski recovery

 

[LiquidFeet]

Yeah, it's a chicken or egg situation. What to learn first? I didn't identify which things to learn first in any of my long posts. My goal was to identify all the movements involved in the desired movement pattern (Reilly's turns) that Karlo wants to learn.

If I had to make a choice of what to teach/learn when, it would be separation first (there sure are lots of drills for that - Karlo, how's your pivot slip coming along?), then flex-to-release second. Why? The flexion initiation works best if the skier's torso is facing at least somewhat downhill at the end of the old turn.

Both separation and flex-to-release are difficult to teach and learn when skiing square and using extension at initiation are deeply embedded. Each needs to be attacked with determination and single-minded focus, one at a time. IMO.