Rate the Turns 2

[karlo]

Yes, short turns one. Looking again, in some of your turns the tip comes up higher. In some only the tail comes up. In other you lift the whole ski briefly.

If the tip is higher, it could indicate you're back. But the bigger question is, why are you lifting the skis at all?

The inside ski, right? I’m told I do that. I don’t even realize it. My focus is to get the most out of my outside ski. To keep my inside ski down, I really have to think about it, which I was doing, thinking about it in Short Turn 2.

interestingly, I’m told I don’t lift ski with retraction turns. With retraction turns, I feel like I just tip. Whereas with extension turns, I feel more like a skater, performing an externally rotated abduction. ....hey, skaters pickup their skates don’t they? hmmm? What’s the problem with picking up the ski again??

 

[karlo]

Super duper footbeds, for one thing. You might be surprised.

What footbeds fit into that category?

 

[James]

My focus is to get the most out of my outside ski.

Focus on the inside ski. This should be from wedge turns on up. Extension/retraction shouldn’t be any different with that focus either. There’s good reasons it prob is, but too lengthy to discuss. Mostly about perception/action.
The outside still does most of the work.

Focusing in the inside will help you stop pushing the skis out. It’s subtle, but it’s there. But if you’re trying to do shrt swing with check, makes sense. Try round turns instead.
Actually on one of the clips toward the end, you totally stopped that. Maybe trying less hard?

 

[Chris V.]

What footbeds fit into that category?

PM. I don't want to get into trouble.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....

 

[Noodler]

As @razie noted many posts ago, you are not done with your quest to achieve correct alignment. The best thing you can do for your skiing at the start of the next season is seek out a new (better) boot alignment pro.

If you don't fix that first, everything you do in your skiing will still have ingrained compensation movements to make up for the alignment problem.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Karlo, I have done a frame-by-frame comparison of your short turns compared to Reilly's short turns. Do you want me to post it? I've highlighted the differences. There are many.

 

[Skisailor]

Karlo, I have done a frame-by-frame comparison of your short turns compared to Reilly's short turns. Do you want me to post it? I've highlighted the differences. There are many.

Ooh. I hope so. So educational for all of us . . . No pressure @karlo !

 

[karlo]

Karlo, I have done a frame-by-frame comparison of your short turns compared to Reilly's short turns. Do you want me to post it? I've highlighted the differences. There are many.

It will be a long list. But, hey, it's free! So, yes, yes, yes! Thank you so much for your time. BTW, "Short Turns 1" is where I tried to the McGlashan's "Classic Short Swing" (as described in Legacy 1) using the mental focus of pulling the outside foot forward. In "Short Turns 2", I was doing my own thing, with a focus on mobilizing my left hip.

 

[karlo]

As @razie noted many posts ago, you are not done with your quest to achieve correct alignment. The best thing you can do for your skiing at the start of the next season is seek out a new (better) boot alignment pro.

If you don't fix that first, everything you do in your skiing will still have ingrained compensation movements to make up for the alignment problem.

I think I will have to start with new boots. Besides, I've been wanting a pair of white boots, like @Deadslow has.

 

[LiquidFeet]

It will be a long list. But, hey, it's free! So, yes, yes, yes! ....

Here you go.

 

[vindibona1]

Video 2 from above

Disclaimer: I have a reading disability (exacerbated by on-screen reading) and often miss things. So I apologize in advance if I'm covering already covered territory or missed or misinterpreted a previous reply.

Here is a subtle example of what I had mentioned in other threads regarding two elements: Too early pressure transfer to outside ski/SEQUENCE of movement patterns/body position (all connected)...There are a lot of things going on that are very, very subtle. The skier has some very good skills and movement patterns. What I saw was a carbon-copy of the way I skied years ago (it takes one to know one). It took a trip to Snowbird and a lesson from Roger Renstrom (anyone here know him?) to straighten me out.

I'm not sure in what order I should talk about the different things, but here goes.
The main thing is the sequence of movements is off and the concept of how pressure develops in relation to movement patterns needs some adjustment.

1) While the skier is using a significant amount of flexion and extension, conceptually it needs to be thought of in reverse. Take a look at the bottom of each turn. He is flexing, for sure, but it appears that he is trying to add pressure at the bottom of the turn; a place where the most pressure generally develops on its own. It is my experience, thought and personal opinion, that the flexion at the completion phase of the turn doesn't require extra pressure, but a transitional softening into the release of the turn.

2) So as he adds pressure at the bottom of the turn, he has to release it somehow. So instead of continuing to flex to release (allowing CoM to cross over, projecting downhill), he releases by moving pressure to the outside ski and extends (almost like an up-unweighted turn). And while his CoM doesn't move opposite the "general direction of travel" (down the hill) it isn't projecting properly either.

3) Because he is already extended at the initiation of the turn, it doesn't give his legs any "headroom" to extend into the upper portion of the turn. Also, because of this, he has to, and does, move his CoM laterally so that he can establish a platform in the development phase of the turn... but in having to do so is not in a position to establish a higher edge angle.

4) Consequently, because the movement sequence is off, it causes a cascade of all the other things mentioned above, creating a series of "linked compromises". The skis are never allowed to develop dynamics through forward motion, on edge, in the snow, creating reverse camber. He isn't getting real carving, not really storing and releasing energy from turn to turn.

And so, the changes needed are on several levels, but the first thing that needs to lead the changes is changing the sequence of movements. Rather than releasing turns BY pressuring the upcoming outside ski, the skier needs to learn to release the turns first (before pressure transfer) and then think about pressuring the outside ski after. Releasing the outside ski first would require changing the body positions is and CoM has to be/move toward/at the end of the turn so the edges can be released BEFORE engaging the new outside ski. If begun from the flexed position, thinking about using the flexion to relieve pressure rather than add it, it will give the legs the ability to extend into the upper part of the turn, engage the edges better/sooner, shape the turn better and utilize the dynamics that the skis and the turn shape provides, courtesy of momentum and centrifugal/centripetal force.

As they say; 1000 words is worth a picture. It would be so much easier to demonstrate than talk about. The good news is that this skier has very good movement patterns. He's just using them at the wrong time, causing him to use them in a way that is less than ideal for the turns that I believe he wished to make. And it should go without saying, that all of what I saw in the video is my interpretation of the intent of the skier in the conditions the video was filmed. This is precisely where I would use a modified Whitepass turn to help retrain the movement sequences.

P.S... @LiquidFeet posted a reply just above this as I was typing this diatribe. Good post LF... It pretty much addressed everything I said here, except the sequence of movements, which I believe would be the first thing I'd talk about in a lesson with this skier.

[I'm sure I'll come back and edit this thing three times. I'm no better a proofreader of my own stuff than when I read anyone else's :0 Feel free to correct or even challenge the above. I'm not above learning from other folks )

Sorry for the long dissertation... We're sequestered at home for two weeks and I got nothin' else to do .

 

[karlo]

Here you go.

Thank you! I think your stills of McGlashan are of what he calls a race-carve short turn. I see McGlashan’s “Classic Short Swing” as an extension turn with edge set later in the turn. Here are stills from the video, Legacy Part 1.
In my Short Turns 1, I am attempting to make that turn.

That said, I still have much to do. Care to compare my Classic Short Swing to his?

 

[karlo]

Rather than releasing turns BY pressuring the upcoming outside ski,

Do you mean, you see that I am pressuring my old inside ski at turn finish?

what I saw in the video is my interpretation of the intent of the skier

1. In Short Turns 2, I was slowing thing down from Short Turns 1

2. And, rather than attempting to do Classic Short Swing, as in Short Turns 1, I was trying to do a carved short turn.

3. I also intended to make an exaggerated turn finish in an attempt to get more rotation at the hip joint, as well as to reduce speed.

Yes, a more complete turn finish need not be accomplished by adding pressure to the bottom of a turn. See my wedge christies, which I’ve also posted on YouTube, and you’ll see that flattening, then rotating, is not my forte.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Thank you! I think your stills of McGlashan are of what he calls a race-carve short turn. I see McGlashan’s “Classic Short Swing” as an extension turn with edge set later in the turn. ....
Care to compare my Classic Short Swing to his?

Nope.

But Karlo, I don't need to, because those short swing turns by Reilly are still flexion turns. Reilly is a committed flexion guy. He's using the same turn mechanics in these turns as in the turns I used when I did the frame-by-frame comparison with your turns. He just sped the movements up and called it short swing. These "classic short swings" (classic in what sense???) are retraction turns, using the more precise sense of that term.

The up-down you see and interpret as resulting from extension has to do with his extremely high edge angles at apex and the speed with which he releases after that. When he brings his skis in and releases with a flexion move, he's flexing both legs. His knees stay high, near his chest, through the whole sequence of moves from apex to apex. If we could see him from the side, we would see that his thighs stay almost horizontal from apex to apex.

He moves from fall line to fall line very fast. This produces significant rebound and float. He moves his two feet while they are light from one side to the other beneath his hips. There is no new outside leg extension pushing his torso over the skis.

I doubt you will be able to find the "get over it" extension in any of this skier's turns. Reilly is the poster boy for the teaching system that scorns using extension at initiation.

 

[vindibona1]

Do you mean, you see that I am pressuring my old inside ski at turn finish?

1. In Short Turns 2, I was slowing thing down from Short Turns 1

2. And, rather than attempting to do Classic Short Swing, as in Short Turns 1, I was trying to do a carved short turn.

3. I also intended to make an exaggerated turn finish in an attempt to get more rotation at the hip joint, as well as to reduce speed.

Yes, a more complete turn finish need not be accomplished by adding pressure to the bottom of a turn. See my wedge christies, which I’ve also posted on YouTube, and you’ll see that flattening, then rotating, is not my forte.

Rather than elaborate on what I said, here's what you should think about. As I said, the movement sequence was the source of the problem, leading to the other issues. I'm going to try to make this as simple as possible. Try to engage the new corresponding edges in your turns BEFORE transferring pressure to the outside ski...

... That will require you to rethink a lot of things. Your body position, to release and re-engage will have to be much more downhill to unlock your feet. You will have to be in a lower position, with ankles and knees remaining bent to control edge angles. Then, as the new turn develops, you can extend INTO the hi-c of the turn (as LF's illustration called it). With the skis momentarily continuing in the direction of the old turn, you can then utilize momentum and centrifugal/centripetal forces to apply pressure to the already edged skis, as they begin to change directions, creating natural pressure where the momentum intersects with the direction change. It will also allow you to angulate in, because the momentum provides the lateral force and the edges hold the platform. Simultaneously you then SOFTEN THE INSIDE SKI TO ALLOW PRESSURE TO MAINLY GO TO THE OUTSIDE SKI AS YOU CONTINUE TO EXTEND THE OUTSIDE SKI. [If you extend too early, then you've prematurely used up your ability to fine-tune and adjust the pressure.] Then, as the turn progressed past the development stage of the turn, you will be begin flexing/compressing to allow the skis to continue to edge, but not be overpressured- as you transition into the subsequent turn, etc.

What you were doing was moving to the new outside ski too early, extending too early, failing to keep your mass moving aggressively downhill, interfering with the entire sequence of the turn. This gave up the dynamic shaping of the top of the turn, which leads to the dynamics of the rest of the turn. Now, when you "reseqence" your movement patterns you can still pressure the outside ski early (somewhat) if you want, but you will do that from a lower, flexed position and you'll be able to use the natural forces to control most of the aspects of the turns. Mostly the same mechanics, different order- with more control and dynamics. The only difference in the mechanics themselves that might need some enhancement is the concept of softening the inside to add more pressure to the outside. The proviso of that is that the natural forces have to be there first.

I hope this helps.
P.S.... I've already gone back and edited this four times to help with clarity... and I'm still not sure I got everything right the way I want to express it. As I said... I"m a terrible proof reader.

 

[karlo]

The up-down you see and interpret as resulting from extension has to do with his extremely high edge angles at apex and the speed with which he releases after that.

I see it now! What he is doing is not at all like an extension turn. Like you say, the extension is happening as he goes to apex. The visual learner can only learn by seeing. Thanks for opening my eyes.

Try to engage the new corresponding edges in your turns BEFORE transferring pressure to the outside ski...

Right, I see it now.

 

[Noodler]

@LiquidFeet - that was a fantastic analysis and clearly a lot of work went into that.

 

[karlo]

@LiquidFeet - that was a fantastic analysis and clearly a lot of work went into that.

@LiquidFeet, yes, it's amazing. Thank you!

 

[Chris V.]

Care to compare my Classic Short Swing to his?

Great job with the video still captures. Wow, some big O-framing by McGlashan. I'm not seeing that in your skiing, karlo. And I beg to differ with some of the remarks here, I'm seeing very early weight transfer by McGlashan. It clearly works for him, although it's not the only way one could do it.