Rate the Turns 2

[Mike King]

It appears to me the wedge resulted from this, at exit of the previous turn,
View attachment 96813

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I am untipping the old inside ski much earlier than my old outside ski, resulting in the new outside ski tipped onto edge much earlier than the new inside ski. Why I am doing that, what happened, I don't know. I don't think it appears in all turns. But, yeah, why did I, exiting the previous turn, untip so assymetrically? I don't know.

"At this point in that turn your left ski should be almost off the snow,"
I had been told that I have a habit of picking up my new inside ski when entering a turn. I was intentfully trying not to do that. So, perhaps I over did it? Still, I don't know why the above asymmetry.

@karlo, this is a classic rotary push off move. It's fairly common. Because you extend the old inside leg to move your mass across the skis, and because you are applying rotary before establishing the edge, your new outside ski starts rotating before the inside ski, resulting in a wedge in the initiation of the turn.

So, as I said in the post above, a way to correct this is to think edge before rotary. This will actually have several effects: first, it will establish an edge that can accept the pressure of the forces in the turn resulting in the ski bending high in the turn, second, it may encourage you to move with the ski rather than dumping the body inside early, and third, it may slow your movements down so that the top of the turn is more similar to the bottom of the turn.

Mike

 

[karlo]

I think you are in too much of a hurry. Slow the turns down. Think about tipping the right ski first to go right or left ski first to go left. Think about flattening old outside ski first.

Definitely. I'm tripping over my own feet so to speak. To get to the quickness and precision of McGlashan, gotta start slow and develop the precision first.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

Definitely. I'm tripping over my own feet so to speak. To get to the quickness and precision of McGlashan, gotta start slow and develop the precision first.

More wedge christies.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Definitely. I'm tripping over my own feet so to speak. To get to the quickness and precision of McGlashan, gotta start slow and develop the precision first.

Karlo, that first Reilly video of the Short Turn Camp has drills that will help you do this turn you are after.

The drills presented during the first minute:
1. horizontal poles (to help avoid upper body leaning in)
2. two foot pull-back/straight run; the drill is exaggerated so that the tails lift. (Reilly pulls feet back for every short turn)
3. two foot pull-back while turning, with pole drag - to avoid getting tall (Reilly stays low between turns)
4. two foot pull-back while turning, without poles; both skis are now entirely airborne with the pull-back. The pull-back yields more time with skis on new edges above the fall line.
5. outside ski to outside ski with angulation, no poles (Reilly directs weight to the outside ski)
6. short radius turns with pole drag, using two foot pull-back (without airborne tails), angulating to direct pressure from outside ski to outside ski. The pull-back extends the top of the turn. He talks about early edging; that requires time up there, with skis on the snow. Reilly is not rotating the skis, or the new outside ski, with muscles. The new edges are turning the ski to point downhill.

If you do these drills, focusing on the pole drags and two-foot pull-back, you may find yourself purging the extension turn with a wedge entry and getting something closer to what Reilly is doing. By 1:23 he has eliminated the pole drag and is doing the actual turns. These are round and smooth, with skis staying on the snow. The issue for most folks is the embedded rotation and focus on the new outside ski. You'll need to purge that habitual rotation which will take a ton of deliberate practice.

IMO there is zero resemblance to wedge christie mechanics, as I have been taught them, in these turns. You should know that his turns get the approval of the PMTS crew. I like these turns a lot. PMTS technique stays as far away from the mechanics of a wedge christie turn as possible, and approval from the PMTS boss is not easy to get.

At 1:58 Reilly speeds up these turns to make "Short Swings." Those turns exhibit the same mechanics as the short radius turns, only faster, and they tend to have a quick new inside ski lift to clear it out of the way since the turns happen so quickly.

 

[Nancy Hummel]

Karlo, that first Reilly video of the Short Turn Camp has drills that will help you do this turn you are after.

The drills presented during the first minute:
1. horizontal poles (to help avoid upper body leaning in)
2. two foot pull-back/straight run; the drill is exaggerated so that the tails lift. (Reilly pulls feet back for every short turn)
3. two foot pull-back while turning, with pole drag - to avoid getting tall (Reilly stays low between turns)
4. two foot pull-back while turning, without poles; both skis are now entirely airborne with the pull-back. The pull-back yields more time with skis on new edges above the fall line.
5. outside ski to outside ski with angulation, no poles (Reilly directs weight to the outside ski)
6. round turns with pole drag, using two foot pull-back (without airborne tails), angulating to direct pressure from outside ski to outside ski. The pull-back extends the top of the turn. He talks about early edging; that requires time up there, with skis on the snow. Reilly is not rotating the skis, or the new outside ski, with muscles. The new edges are turning the ski to point downhill.

If you do these, you may find yourself purging the extension turn with a wedge entry and getting something closer to what Reilly is doing. By 1:23 he has eliminated the pole drag and is doing the actual turns.

IMO there is zero resemblance to wedge christie mechanics as I have been taught them in these turns. You should know that his turns get the approval of the PMTS crew. I like them, too. And PMTS technique is as far away from the mechanics of a wedge christie turn as possible.

By the way, does Reilly call these "Short Swing" turns? I know "short swing" as something else entirely.

Karlo needs to learn to release his old outside ski before tipping or turning. He stated he often “lifts his new inside foot”. This means he is not releasing (flattening) his edges before tipping or turning the old inside ski.

I suspect that this is the same (lack of) movement pattern that caused him trouble with his wedge christies at the Level 2 exam. Until Karlo can flatten his skis, the other drills may not make much difference.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Nancy Hummel, I agree that Karlo needs to focus on his release.

The wedge christie release, as an examiner taught it this last December to our ski school, involves extending the new outside leg to start the turn. This raises the CoM and moves it downhill, up and over and across the skis. This movement of the CoM flattens both skis. As they begin to turn, the skier allows the outside ski's turning to happen more, thus accomplishing the wedge entry. Or the skier intentionally rotates both feet to get the wedge entry.

At the fall line, the skier starts shortening the new inside leg to make the skis turn across the hill (otherwise they would continue straight down the fall line). In the alpine manual, this two-part long-leg-short-leg action is described clearly, and it's encouraged for the basic parallel turn as well, keeping turn mechanics consistent from first turns to parallel.

So a PSIA by-the-book wedge christie uses an extension release. Or extend-to-release.

Reilly's short radius turns accomplish the release by shortening the new inside leg, thus keeping his body low between turns. Flex-to-release. This is why I say there's a significant difference between the PSIA wedge christie and Reilly's short radius turn.

 

[Mike King]

@Nancy Hummel, I agree that Karlo needs to focus on his release.

The wedge christie release, as an examiner taught it this last December to our ski school, involves extending the new outside leg to start the turn. This raises the CoM and moves it downhill, up and over and across the skis. This movement of the CoM flattens both skis. As they begin to turn, the skier allows the outside ski's turning to happen more, thus accomplishing the wedge entry. Or the skier intentionally rotates both feet to get the wedge entry.

At the fall line, the skier starts shortening the new inside leg to make the skis turn across the hill (otherwise they would continue straight down the fall line). In the alpine manual, this two-part long-leg-short-leg action is described clearly, and it's encouraged for the basic parallel turn as well, keeping turn mechanics consistent from first turns to parallel.

So a PSIA by-the-book wedge christie uses an extension release. Or extend-to-release.

Reilly's short radius turns accomplish the release by shortening the new inside leg, thus keeping his body low between turns. Flex-to-release. This is why I say there's a significant difference between the PSIA wedge christie and Reilly's short radius turn.

There is no "PSIA" method of skiing. There are many ways to create a wedge christie, some of which will pass a certification exam and some that will not.

I was skiing in a Cert 3 clinic on Friday and the way I figured out to create a wedge christie turn that was excellent was to initiate the turn by tipping the old outside foot/new inside foot. This shortened my inside leg and moved my center of mass over the old outside ski. It was then easy to rotate the new outside foot to create the wedge.

For me, this was a revelation. Prior to this, I had tried the same movement pattern in gliding wedge turns. Typically, wedge turns have seriously hurt my hips -- I have torn labrums in both hips. But by initiating the turn by tipping that downhill foot, my turns were pretty much effortless with no stress on the hip at all.

My clinician, an examiner, complimented my wedge Christies and wedge turns.

Mike

 

[Mike King]

BTW, my takeaway was that there is a continuity in ski technique from wedge turns to short radius dynamic turns.

 

[Skisailor]

The closest I came up with to the Classic Short Swing is at about 0:18 here,
In "Legacy Part 1", there is much more extension apparent in video taken from below. It is described as a more brushed turn, with later edge set, leaving a (pretty broad) quarter moon shape track. It's only $6.99 American dollars to access all their videos for one month. Have some time on your hands the next few weeks or so?

View attachment 96811


I don't know about the pole touch. I slowed down Turns 1 (using PC, not smartphone) to 0.25 and compared to Turns 2 slowed to 0.5. Seems to me pole touch happens about the same time. But, my eye is not the most discerning. Yes, turns in both videos are extension turns. For flexion short turns, I would want different gear and different conditions.

Why different gear and conditions?

 

[LiquidFeet]

There is no "PSIA" method of skiing. There are many ways to create a wedge christie, some of which will pass a certification exam and some that will not.....

Yes, I agree there are different ways of doing the wedge christie, with the visuals not changing a whole lot from one way to another.

The description I posted above is described in the PSIA 2014 Alpine Manual, along with how to do a wedge turn and a basic, open, parallel turn. The descriptions of those three in the manual are close enough to qualify as "consistent," or at least the manual declares them so.

The examiner I mentioned, a former National Team member, took our group through a step-by-step progression to teach us how to do them the way they are described in the manual. Perhaps many different ways will pass a LII or LIII skiing exam, but the one in the manual surely has some extra weight given it.

Since there are many ways to do a wedge christie, and some of those ways are OK by PSIA but others are not, it would be helpful if PSIA explained clearly to the membership which ways will pass an exam and which ones will not. The troops in the trenches would like to know.

Do you have a link to something that explains these approved and disapproved ways of doing the turn?

 

[Mike King]

Yes, there are different ways of doing the wedge christie, with the visuals not changing a whole lot from one way to another.

The description I posted above is described in the PSIA 2014 Alpine Manual, along with how to do a wedge turn and a basic, open, parallel turn. The descriptions of those three in the manual are close enough to qualify as "consistent," or at least the manual declares them so.

The examiner I mentioned, a former National Team member, took our group through a step-by-step progression to teach us how to do them the way they are described in the manual. Perhaps many different ways will pass a LII or LIII skiing exam, but the one in the manual surely has some extra weight given it.

I sure would be helpful if there are some ways that will pass and some that will not if PSIA described those so troops in the trenches could know. Do you have a link to such descriptions?

Boy, would that be useful! And a useful use of our dues!

While I think there is a major effort underway to standardize the cert levels and cut levels, it still is a subjective exercise. Which means that different examiners will look, at the margin, for different things...

 

[karlo]

I suspect that this is the same (lack of) movement pattern that caused him trouble with his wedge christies at the Level 2 exam. Until Karlo can flatten his skis, the other drills may not make much difference.

Yes, flattening the skis! That's exactly what I discovered I needed to do to achieve a passable (4) wedge christie. Actually, what I discovered was that I had to rotate the outside ski. Of course, to do that, I had to flatten it.

moved my center of mass over the old outside ski. It was then easy to rotate the new outside foot to create the wedge.

Moving the COM over the old outside ski flattens it, doesn't it?

 

[karlo]

Why different gear and conditions?

I was on 180 19-meter 88 Brahma's with rocker and it was, you can see, very warm and soft and terrain was relatively shallow. I would prefer to do this again with shorter, narrower non-rockered skis on firmer steeper, not very steep, terrain. Not that I would be great at it. I simply think it would make it easier to develop my technique. Why? I think a shorter ski would be more cooperative in making a short turn. I think a narrow ski would be quicker edge to edge. I think absent rocker, and absent flared tip, I can make use of the tip to get the turn going more quickly. I think firmer snow and a bit steeper terrain will make it easier to maintain speed and harness momentum. As it was, it felt like I was pushing a bowling ball through sand. I'm just not skillful enough to deal with the extra challenges. On the other spectrum, earlier this year, I was with a full-cert Austrian, and he had no problem at all making short turns with a 190 27-meter FIS GS ski.

 

[dbostedo]

A-shape/ frame is something you should work on methinks...and something is off with the timing, cant put my finger on it tho...

The only thing I could come up with, was a bit of "sit" motion toward the tails as he settles into each turn. I'm not sure if that, but the tip of one ski comes up between turns 3 and 4, so maybe that indicates a motion back too much?

(And keep in mind, I am not even close to being either an instructor or expert skier...)

 

[karlo]

The only thing I could come up with, was a bit of "sit" motion toward the tails as he settles into each turn. I'm not sure if that, but the tip of one ski comes up between turns 3 and 4, so maybe that indicates a motion back too much?

(And keep in mind, I am not even close to being either an instructor or expert skier...)

Is this in “Short Turns 1”? If so, I think I actually picked up the whole ski a fraction of second. See slo-mo. Do you agree?

 

[razie]

I didn't follow your alignment woes, but it doesn't look done... it looks off. It's not easy to see what's going on, but the left side boot cuff looks fairly strong with the canting soft and the canting on the right foot is... I'm going to say... strong although the cuff looks off too - do you have weird tibias, like me?

 

[karlo]

I didn't follow your alignment woes, but it doesn't look done... it looks off. It's not easy to see what's going on, but the left side boot cuff looks fairly strong with the canting soft and the canting on the right foot is... I'm going to say... strong although the cuff looks off too - do you have weird tibias, like me?

Before last weeks bootfitting, I felt a problem with my left boot. I couldn’t get onto my little toe edge, neither when exiting an old turn, nor traversing a shallow slope with the left ski as the uphill ski. In the traverse, my left knee would collapse inward. Even standing on one foot, boot on, on a flat floor, my left knee would collapse inward.

Now, it seems better, but still not the same as my right boot. Doing the traverse, very easy to be on my right little toe when it’s uphill. More difficult with the left, but do-able. The difficultly now feels muscular, like what I experienced last year, trying to do a tree-pose or passé,

Not hip dumping. What’s it take?

Talk to Tom Gellie - he'll fix you. Great guy and very knowledgeable, kind of a specialty for him. I don't think he posts here, you'll find him on Facebook. Look for The Foot Collective / Tom Gellie. cheers He’s kinda far. But, his videos are a great resource for skiers, instructors and...

www.pugski.com

I feel like if I can activate the correct muscle(s), I can get onto that edge. Also, the left footer white pass turn is more difficult than the right footer. Anyway, for sure, now’s not the time to handicap myself with a misaligned boot.

As for alignment, the bootfitter had me stand on one foot, in the boot, and plumbed my knee to something. He said it was perfect. Not sure what else to do.

 

[karlo]

That said, note that in the first video I had forgotten to buckle down the top buckles of my left boot

 

[dbostedo]

Is this in “Short Turns 1”? If so, I think I actually picked up the whole ski a fraction of second. See slo-mo. Do you agree?

Yes, short turns one. Looking again, in some of your turns the tip comes up higher. In some only the tail comes up. In other you lift the whole ski briefly.

If the tip is higher, it could indicate you're back. But the bigger question is, why are you lifting the skis at all?

 

[Chris V.]

As for alignment, the bootfitter had me stand on one foot, in the boot, and plumbed my knee to something. He said it was perfect. Not sure what else to do.

Super duper footbeds, for one thing. You might be surprised.