Rate the Turns 2

[nSkier]

@Tony Storaro
Hard to compare. Different slopes, different snow, different ski's etc.
I am fully aware of the fact that my skiing doesn't look nearly as good as Reilly his skiing. There is thousands of skiers that look prettier than me. I mean I find Harald Harb's skiing more pleasing to watch than my own skiing as well, but do you really think a 70 year old would beat a 26 year old?

This is an interesting thread; first post btw...been lurking for a while. Skitechniek, you acknowledge that others ski much "prettier" than you but maybe you should also ask why that is. The skiers we all admire have something in common: technical foundation. This expresses itself as a certain movement efficiency that the eyes find deeply aesthetic...or to use your own words "pretty".

It's a tough pill to swallow, but the reason your skiing is not "pretty" is because you are skiing with movements that cannot generate the same level of performance with similar effort. In skiing, form IS function. Sure you can get away with a lot if you rely heavily on athleticism but this is not the path to technical proficiency. A strong athlete like yourself could be world-class with a solid technical foundation. Forgive me for analyzing your skiing like this, I assume publicly posted videos are fair game...it's all with good intention.

I also want to touch on why you can't directly compare Reilly and Hirscher. From a technical standpoint they use the same fundamental movements, but they have made different optimizations for different goals. Reilly has optimized his technical foundation for free skiing, Hirsher has optimized himself for the course. At the level these athletes are skiing, it's the optimizations that make all the difference BUT these optimizations can only be built on top of a rock solid technical foundation. We can argue in circles over how Reilly is optimized vs Hirscher, but the main point of interest is that these two incredible skiers use the same fundamental movements for vastly different goals (this is noteworthy for recreational skiers).

To elaborate a little on what I mean by "technical foundation", I mean using the right movements (tipping/flexing/counter) with the right timing and proportion to achieve the highest possible performance-to-effort ratio. Razie does a great job explaining the finer points here (full disclosure: Razie coaches me). It's very difficult to talk about this because strong athletes like yourself can already achieve some level of high-performance, it's just vastly underachieving compared to where it could be. Before Razie started coaching me, I could put my hip on the snow at will, but it was very "hippy" with limited performance. The question isn't by how much a 26 year old can beat a 70 year old, its about how much better that 26 year old could be.

Don't take this personally I don't mean to call you out. At the end of the day skiing is only about one thing: having a blast! There are many different ways to ski, but when we are talking about peak performance it narrows down significantly.

 

[karlo]

you need shorter poles and to stop pushing off your outside ski at the end of the turn.

Yup. I noticed that Reilly must be using shorter poles. So, I had already dumped my alpine poles that morning, in favor of my touring poles. I shoulda made them shorter yet. Also, I was skiing that day with an instructor who’s a friend of Paul Lorenz, Reilly’s Projected Productions partner. She sported they’re adjustable technical poles,

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[karlo]

I am fully aware of the fact that my skiing doesn't look nearly as good as Reilly his skiing. There is thousands of skiers that look prettier than me

If it makes you feel any better, “Worldwide, at present, there are 130 million people who ski.”

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[Skitechniek]

@nSkier
Of course it's fair game, it's a public video. You are allowed to criticize me as much as you want. Always interested in someone else's opinion. Apart from that, I did MA on other video's as well. If you can criticize people, you should accept being criticized on as well.

I know my flaws, go ahead and you tell me my flaws. And if you think my performance is lacking, how much faster would Reilly be in a course?

I said it is hard to compare, because the slope I carved is not steep (although it is steep enough for WC athletes to train there occassionaly), I wasn't skiing dynamically and my ski's have radius 35. I have seen plenty of people being able to put their hip on the snow on a slalomski and their form absolutely breaks down on a gs or super g ski.

But some of the problems I see and feel in my own skiing:
- Hippy at times
- Sometimes unnecessary counter
- Assymetry
- My head sometimes moves
- Park and ride carving
- Long pressure
- Quite some turns were on inside
- Hard to see, but I always had a hip rotation to the left, you can see it if you look closely. Recently found out it is due to leg length differences, so working on that off snow now.
- Can't see this either, but I want better core engagement/more tension in the abdominal area.
- I had pretty poor posture, working on that off snow as well. Hard to see as well, but e.g. high tensed shoulders are a problem

I could go on and on and on about my skiing.

However, if you think tipping, flexing and counter lacks in my skiing, I would disagree. I do all those things.

I disagree with the optimizing for freeskiing vs. racing thing as well. If you can ski well in the gates, you can ski well outside of the gates. Never seen it otherwise. For me it's just about GRF, it's not like Hirscher is not able to generate massive GRF once the gates are not there anymore. And it is silly to think Reilly is able to generate even close to the GRF Hirscher can generate.

And to use how aesthetically pleasing someone looks as an argument for how much performance there is, that of course is silly too. I find Reilly's skiing to be more aesthetic than Hirscher's skiing. I find Warren Jobbit's skiing and Harald Harb's skiing aesthetic too, more so than my own, doesn't mean they ski with higher performance.

 

[nSkier]

And to use how aesthetically pleasing someone looks as an argument for how much performance there is, that of course is silly too. I find Reilly's skiing to be more aesthetic than Hirscher's skiing. I find Warren Jobbit's skiing and Harald Harb's skiing aesthetic too, more so than my own, doesn't mean they ski with higher performance.

With respect, this is not at all my point I said its "movement efficiency" that creates aesthetic not strictly performance. Of course once movement efficiency is achieved, your performance cap is going to be much higher. Needless to say, movement efficiency as demonstrated by an older or lesser athlete will show net less performance than a gifted athlete using sub-optimal technique (but still far below said athlete's potential).

I don't know which racers you have been looking at, but I would say most (that I have seen) are relatively awkward free skiers and I say that with the utmost respect for what they do. Very few can free ski at Reilly-like level. Maybe our standards are completely different.

I find your Reilly/Hirscher comparison surprising! Would you really hold a top World Cup athlete to the same aesthetic standards as a pro demo skier? Considering Hirscher is putting his life and body at risk, I'd say he makes it look very good

Edit: As far as your personal skiing, I would call it very athletic skiing but technically unrefined. There is a world of difference between tipping/flexing/counter and TIPPING/FLEXING/COUNTER Luckily there are many resources available if one is open to reevaluating their technical model.

 

[Skitechniek]

@nSkier
You don't have to treat me with velvet gloves on hahaha. I appreciate the kindness, but you can say it how you see it. I can take it.

Haha yes, we have very different views/standards of good skiing. For me it's purely about GRF, and how you make it look is non of my concern. Whether you look like Reilly McGlashan, Warren Jobbit, Alex Taugwalder, HeluvaSkier or the skiers from LaGrandeneve, I really don't care.

So no, I don't hold anyone to an aesthetic standard, but my god is Reilly's skiing beautiful to watch.

But in general, no matter the surface, be it moguls, powder or on the slope, if you can generate lots of GRF, you are good. It is a very objective standard to measure good skiing. A bad skier will never generate high GRF.

 

[nSkier]

Cheers for being a good sport. I will say though, that if its GRF you are after, you wouldn't believe whats possible when you combine fundamental movements with athletic ability...looking good is just the side effect

 

[Skitechniek]

@nSkier
Sure, agree. But the way Reilly ski's is not the way to maximize GRF. His timing is way off and his outside ski balance is nothing special imho.

This is Stefano Gross. Ski's completely different to Reilly, definitely not pretty to watch, but I'd take this over Reilly 100%.

All you need for high GRF is speed, big angles and godly balance over the outside ski. Timing of course helps too. Late edge angle generates way more GRF than early edge angle. All a matter of physics. E.g. the earlier you apply resistance to the ski, the earlier you will slow down and your speed in the apex will be lower and max. output of GRF will be lower.

EDIT:
To explain some more. Reilly is usually with his hip on the ground before the fall line or in the fall line and he cannot tip the ski any further. You see Gross with smaller angles before the fall line, but he continues tipping till after the fall line. There is also research on wc athletes GS turns and max. angle is usually just after the apex/fall line. Hence, the tipping is continuous. Reilly has his hip on the ground early and then basically rides it out on the same edge angle. That is not how you maximize GRF.

 

[nSkier]

I see all the same fundamental movements in Stefano's skiing, albeit maybe lacking the same upper body discipline in a free-skiing context. IMO you are looking at differences in optimization, not fundamental movements. Rest assured, Reilly can ski like this...its his creative choice to ski the way he does because he has the technical foundation to make it work. Note that I am not saying Reilly would win in a race.

I don't see the late edge angles that you are referring to, I see early edge angles in Stephano's skiing (considering his choice in turn radius). Late edge angles create hard-hits, hip-dumping, less speed control, more rotation, and insufficient rebound for proper flexing (plus a host of other issues). I won't go deeper than this as Razie can explain it alot better.

 

[Skitechniek]

Of course it is a choice to ski like this or that. I'm sure Reilly can ski like this, it is not hard. Early edge angle is harder, because there is less centrifugal force in the beginning of the turn and the radius of the ski is at its biggest at the beginning of the turn and it becomes smaller when the turn progresses/later in the turn. The earlier you make big edge angle, the more speed and better outside ski balance you need to stay on the outside.

The only time you see WC skiers with early edge angle is Beaver Creek, cause it is flat and the course set is weird. But in order to compensate for lack of centrifugal force at the top of the turn, they are massively countered, which Reilly is not.

Maybe we have a lot of different definitions on certain terms. But rebound also increases with late edge angle. Being harder on the edges increases rebound. But rebound is something you want to avoid. Big rebound causes you to be airborn, not something I would want in my skiing.

And yes, late edge angle creates hard hits and hard edge sets and higher GRF. Why do you think the boys are faster than the girls? Higher GRF. Hard edge sets is short pressure points, which is fast.

Look at this e.g.
Hirscher is earlier on edge than Ligety, but Ligety builds angle way earlier. Hirscher delays his angle to when he is closer to the gate. Means higher peak GRF, shorter pressure point, earlier off the edge, faster at the finish line. This is proven physics.

Plenty of research shows a higher line at the top of the turn and higher GRF outputs being measured at higher level skiing in racing.

 

[nSkier]

I can agree with some of that, but again I think you are too focused on the optimizations...the fundamental movements have not changed! I recognize that hard hits are a reality that needs management through a very difficult course but its also important to recognize that this is an adjustment, not a pillar of technical foundation or something that 99.9% of skiers should even think about.

These athletes generate speeds and forces that are unimaginable to most...they are at the absolute limit; both physically and technically. There is nothing the average skier can learn from their specific adjustments and optimizations...in fact, it's counterproductive. You are looking at the cherry on top of the cake, but what's less obvious is their use of the fundamental movements which is the real secret to their performance.

I would say this ties into why Reilly's skiing is so attractive: he demonstrates fundamentals in their purest form because he's not fighting for his life down an icy course.

 

[razie]

@nSkier
But in general, no matter the surface, be it moguls, powder or on the slope, if you can generate lots of GRF, you are good. It is a very objective standard to measure good skiing. A bad skier will never generate high GRF.

That's an interesting way to put it, but yeah. However, it's impulse imho, not the GRF necessarily, that's the important concept, which is force x time. You can have a small force over a long time or a big force over a short time to get the same impulse. Racers go for the second option, because 1) they're on ice which supports it and 2) they get to release and get off the ski earlier. This is the timing that they learn on the course: the patience to create angles without pressure and the right place to put them to good use and get impulse from, yeah - not too late because it slows you down and delays the line, i.e. you grinding the turn without being able to release, lest you go head first through the next gate, which is what I'm known to do, on occasion

Recreational skiers don't normally have this issue - they actually like the slowing down part, as long as it doesn't interfere with the release, which for most it will, if not working on flexing specifically - but you can see how it ties back into this. The quality of the release it then ties back into what you observed, into the balance at the top of the next turn - how long can you glide without pressure - you saw some good things there, , which is why elements of technique (hard skills) should be practiced and mastered individually and then play with applying them (soft skills). In GS you have enough time to play with things and recover mistakes, not so in Slalom - that's why I mostly focus on SL. Plus it's more turns per run, which is good at our 600ft vertical

But this all ties back into technique: do you have the technique that allows you to generate the big angles early enough to get the right impulse and stay in a SL turn or a turn appropriate for the skis you're on? If you look at a lot of examples even here, no they do not, like in the neveitalia vid. Good skiers, nice skiing - I really like it, but I see 30m turns on SL skis and such, so not an appropriate model for what I want to do, very far from Reilly, although it doesn't look like that different maybe.

Gross is awesome all the elements are there, he uses them as he pleases , yeah no hard hits there. Once you own them, you can use them as you see fit for the turn you want to make his little "racer push" there, very well controlled, can make an interesting discussion into patience and angles and pushing... but a regular racer looking at that skiing, will take from it just that push, which is exactly the wrong thing to look at...

 

[Skitechniek]

Happened to get two vids in my recommended from McGlashan and Lorenz which imho is better than what they display nowadays:

^ This one from 3:48

Early edging, not those ridiculous early angles they display nowadays, not those excessive hip on the ground angles, high grf and better use of the apex/bottom of the turn, upper body's are nice and quiet, better balance over the outside ski as a result. This is what I like.

^This however I dislike.

Any thoughts?

@razie
Some of those LaGrandeneve skiers are absolute beasts. Mostly ex-racers, so I would be very very very surprised if Reilly could top their performance. They can ski for sure and they almost never ski slalom ski's, so not sure where you get that from. In Europe most coaches are on gs ski's.
^Very good skiing on the end of this video e.g. 5 minute mark and on. And that is far from the best skiing I have seen on the channel.

 

[razie]

I was talking about the last neve vid on the previous page. Turn radius and offset are off and the skis look short - even the guy on the snapshot cover has the SL or SC, clearly. They are great skiers and I like watching them, don't get me wrong, but the neve Itallians though often do ski with different technique consistently - compare it with Gross, Marcel, Reilly even Spettel and you'll see the differences. The guy at 5 min is on GS indeed - the timing of pressure is not bad there, he's nailing a nice turn, but overall not quite what I'd like to emulate. Look at the way he's getting off the ski, it's less efficient on course especially when it gets rutted and bumpy - you can see that he's grinding late on the line, to get his offset...

He's not that well on the outside ski either:

Very nice to watch though!!

Agree on Reilly and Paul observation. That was my point all along though, that the underlying technique is there, they use it in different ways to get different turns on different snow. As soon as it got steep, they changed the timing accordingly to the performance they were getting / able to get. The technique did not change, just the way they time things changed - that's how I see it. It's not like they changed the way the edge or angulate or counteract or flex, just the timing/tactics.

 

[markojp]

I see all the same fundamental movements in Stefano's skiing, albeit maybe lacking the same upper body discipline in a free-skiing context. IMO you are looking at differences in optimization, not fundamental movements. Rest assured, Reilly can ski like this...its his creative choice to ski the way he does because he has the technical foundation to make it work. Note that I am not saying Reilly would win in a race.

I don't see the late edge angles that you are referring to, I see early edge angles in Stephano's skiing (considering his choice in turn radius). Late edge angles create hard-hits, hip-dumping, less speed control, more rotation, and insufficient rebound for proper flexing (plus a host of other issues). I won't go deeper than this as Razie can explain it alot better.

For what it's worth, if Reilly skied at a level to be a top 5 WC SL skier, I'm sure he would. The money's better. (Popcorn emoji here)

The other interesting thing is how influenced this all is by Japanese tech comps, which in that ski universe is one of the only avenues to a half decent paycheck.

Speaking of boring turns, one of my favs is the older vid of Sebastien Michel... technically spot on, and a guy who tactically just plays with terrain. Love his skiing. Looks like tech outside of the laboratory. Anyhow.... oh! Women big mountain skiers, Lorraine Huber in spades.

 

[karlo]

The other interesting thing is how influenced this all is by Japanese tech comps

I’d say it’s a huge influence on Reilly (and Paul). For Reilly to have broken down four types of short turns the way he does in “Legacy”, I have to think that’s driven by some competitive forces.
Any of these turns look familiar?




Skip the mogul skiing

 

[markojp]

Karlo, Mr. Murayama can ski, that's for sure. His more formal explanations in Japanese are sort of word soupy.... it'll be interesting to see how they change as he works more in English. I love that he seems to have single handedly gotten rid of the old S.A.J. hunch over with swoopy arms thing. Here's an interesting video of him with Tetsuya Okabe, a former (and top seed) WC SL skier. Okabe gives a clinic at 5 mins in, a little back and forth, and some skiing. For non speakers, what they're doing is still pretty clear. Murayama is in the light blue pants, Okabe in the white pants. Love the way Murayama stands on his skis even in these exercises.

 

[razie]

The other interesting thing is how influenced this all is by Japanese tech comps

Exactly!

For what it's worth, if Reilly skied at a level to be a top 5 WC SL skier, I'm sure he would. The money's better. (Popcorn emoji here)

Not fair - it takes a lot more than good skiing to get to the WC in a place where the money is better... if you didn't start very young, you're not getting there... I should know, I tried

 

[Steve]

@markojp is it a common cultural thing in Japan to say “Hai” all the time when someone is talking to you? I noticed that in the lesson segment.

 

[nSkier]

@Skitechniek,

IMO what makes Reilly special is the variety he can demonstrate at a high level. Sure, plenty of racers can carve better and he can't slay bumps quite like Ritchie Berger but overall no-one is as well balanced across all the variety (carving, short turns, bumps, powder). I think its the hardest thing to be well-balanced because most skiers tend to stick to what they know best and we are naturally less talented in certain areas. I appreciate Reilly's dedication to the art of skiing.

I think the videos you refer to show that he can do anything if he focussed on it.