Rank the Race Skis in Order...

[KingGrump]

I took it to mean when handling the skis afterward...my race gloves all have blood stains inside from doing overlays or brushing...

You guys aren't in the trades, eh?

 

[Swede]

I used a SWIX briefly before my oldest quit racing—”shop” logistics just went crazy in U16 and I already had another full time job. It produced a very sharp edge in a fraction of the time it would have taken me to get to something comparable by hand.

 

[Primoz]

I wouldn't say machines make it much (or any) sharper then hand, but sharpness from machine is different (no idea how to really explain that) and edges stay sharp longer, which for racing doesn't really matter, as sharpness needs to last exactly one run. But what makes difference is time needed to do that. You need like minute per ski with machine, while by hand it takes few minutes longer. For single pair it's no big deal, for 10 pairs it's big difference.

 

[James]

Just ski this stuff and you only need stones to smooth out the rock hits. If you care.

 

[KingGrump]

They still make that stuff?

 

[James]

They still make that stuff?

Yep!

https://www.bostonmagazine.com/restaurants/2014/09/24/visit-marshmallow-fluff-factory/

 

[ski otter 2]

I wouldn't say machines make it much (or any) sharper then hand, but sharpness from machine is different (no idea how to really explain that) and edges stay sharp longer, which for racing doesn't really matter, as sharpness needs to last exactly one run. But what makes difference is time needed to do that. You need like minute per ski with machine, while by hand it takes few minutes longer. For single pair it's no big deal, for 10 pairs it's big difference.

Thanks, Primoz.

There are tricks by hand to take care of burrs and increase sharpness fairly quickly, similar to fine points of knife or blade sharpening; but still the time needed is the key factor, as near as I can tell. Lots of skis means the razor tune, etc. make good sense.

For myself, I have lung problems currently in remission from lots of on the job dust and woodworking chemical exposure, so ski sanding dust, wax brushing dust and metal dust are more important to me than for most.

This add stuff from the Razor Tune site sort of explains the difference in feel on the snow of its machine tune versus hand tune:

Razor-Tuned Edge
(Magnified 60x)
The Razor-Tune edge guides are positioned so that only the downward-spinning side of the wheel contacts the ski edge. This allows the tool to easily follow the curve of the ski and ensures that the wheel is always grinding metal down and away from the ski base. This provides a beautifully consistent, mirror-like surface finish with no burr. It also allows the tool to be used in either direction along the edge (even back and forth over trouble spots).


Compare the Razor-Tuned smooth edge to the grooves in the hand filed edge.

Razor-Tune vs. Hand Tuning

Hand Filed Edge
(Magnified 60x)

 

[Primoz]

@ski otter 2 not sure I got it right, but either way, for most of machines I saw or used biggest issue is dust. They produce so much of really fine dust that everyone are using masks, even those who never use them for fluoro stuff. I have never even seen Razor tune, so it might work different then rest but I somehow doubt, so I don't think it's any better then rest when it comes to dust.

 

[maxwerks]

Thanks, Primoz.

There are tricks by hand to take care of burrs and increase sharpness fairly quickly, similar to fine points of knife or blade sharpening; but still the time needed is the key factor, as near as I can tell. Lots of skis means the razor tune, etc. make good sense.

For myself, I have lung problems currently in remission from lots of on the job dust and woodworking chemical exposure, so ski sanding dust, wax brushing dust and metal dust are more important to me than for most.

This add stuff from the Razor Tune site sort of explains the difference in feel on the snow of its machine tune versus hand tune:

Razor-Tuned Edge
(Magnified 60x)
The Razor-Tune edge guides are positioned so that only the downward-spinning side of the wheel contacts the ski edge. This allows the tool to easily follow the curve of the ski and ensures that the wheel is always grinding metal down and away from the ski base. This provides a beautifully consistent, mirror-like surface finish with no burr. It also allows the tool to be used in either direction along the edge (even back and forth over trouble spots).


Compare the Razor-Tuned smooth edge to the grooves in the hand filed edge.

Razor-Tune vs. Hand Tuning

Hand Filed Edge
(Magnified 60x)

Is the comparison hand filed or stoned and with what grain?

 

[ski otter 2]

Is the comparison hand filed or stoned and with what grain?

Both, files, diamond stones, ceramic stones. Also Ski vision tools and stones/files. Depends on what's up. Whew:

Many folks know more than me on this, and have from time to time shown me. But I try to keep it simple.

Ceramic flat stones, rod(s) or blocks (600 and 1200) are what make kitchen knife and hunting knife sharpening clean and easy (to avoid the oil and mess of Arkansas stones, if one is doing a lot of mundane knife or ski sharpening). The most efficient stroke is at about a 45° angle, as if one is cutting the surface of the stone with the knife. But mostly, parallel is more precise and practical with skis. Ceramic stones, including just the white 1200, will usually do it by themselves - if one alternates strokes at least towards the end or once damage burrs and hardening are gone.

I use a Ski Visions stand setup in place of vises, and thus time in and out of the vise, or to re-position the ski, disappear. The hold is good. (See Ski Visions website online for pictures and how to make the stands.) So alternating strokes becomes easy: final stage very sharp, quickly. (But nowhere near as quick as the power tools being discussed.) So a full setup progression, a bit simplified, for me right now, might be three or four progressive files for initial setting edge (standard ones like Swix makes and recommends, for instance), then 100 to 600 diamond, mine Sun Valley), then the two ceramic files (available from any race house, like Artechski, for instance). Then diamond 1500 last, alternating, to insure all hand detectable burr is gone - no hanging burr!

After setup, only the last parts of this progression is needed, mostly: often starting with maybe just the fine 1200 ceramic, etc., or if a bit worse, maybe just the 400 diamond, etc. Putting the best diamond grain for a particular hardening or burr becomes obvious trial and error, then by experience. I use a continuous water method on the diamond stones with a wet tissue as I sharpen, which is what some of the power tools do mechanically. The ceramics don't need that.
I usually use the base and edge bevel guides, but at this point I don't need them often, especially towards the end and with the finer grains: a lot of folks just free hand much of it, file to finish even, since they've done it for so long and know by feel. (This is not what I'd do as much for racing, however.)

This is all pretty standard stuff.

 

[Juha]

I've found that the women's 157 FIS ski, as long as the base bevel is set correctly, works fine for a man 150lb./5'10". A blast, and versatile with different turn shapes and conditions, not twitchy WHEN base bevel right. (I still prefer the 165 FIS ski, though.)

I have found that ladies FIS SL skis work the best for me when in SL track - just bought a pair of head I. SL rd at 156 cm Model 19-20. They are absolute great at a gated track. And also legal in masters classes.
Rossi SL FIS 165 is also good for me, much better than stiffer Atomics and Fischers I also have. All great skis riding without gates but with gates the more softer and shorter ladies SLs just work better for me. Anyhow, everyone needs to try what works for them and get feedback from their coach as well.

 

[razie]

I have found that ladies FIS SL skis work the best for me when in SL track - just bought a pair of head I. SL rd at 156 cm Model 19-20. They are absolute great at a gated track. And also legal in masters classes.
Rossi SL FIS 165 is also good for me, much better than stiffer Atomics and Fischers I also have. All great skis riding without gates but with gates the more softer and shorter ladies SLs just work better for me. Anyhow, everyone needs to try what works for them and get feedback from their coach as well.

I remember the Head i.SL.RD in 156 was a sweet, sweet ski.

Heads are damp, like Rossis - while Fischer and Atomics are very much alive and kicking back quickly...

 

[ski otter 2]

Yes, I really love my 165 Rossis, but also my 157 Atomics. Both neat. In the FIS GS ski, I've had Volkls and two Atomics now, and prefer the Atomics, even though they are probably as different from one another as they are from the Volkls.

 

[razie]

Yes, I really love my 165 Rossis, but also my 157 Atomics. Both neat. In the FIS GS ski, I've had Volkls and two Atomics now, and prefer the Atomics, even though they are probably as different from one another as they are from the Volkls.

Interestingly, after a lot of time on Fischers, I tried my 158 FIS Atomics recently (when the slopes were open) and they felt more damp than I remembered them to be... it may be a flex pattern issue.

For GS, the D2s are ok, but I prefer the unibody heads and fischers - Some D2s have that characteristic flappiness in the tip sometimes, before they engage and bend, while these others stay smooth.

 

[François Pugh]

It's been a while since I was on Atomics, but they always felt solid; Fischers feel brittle in comparison. Even the Atomic skis I demoed that were not solid and stable at high speeds felt as if they would be, until you reached that speed.

 

[ski otter 2]

My D2s are not flappy at all, but do jamming easily (cut-offs; instant change of direction on edge, redirection - stivotting). That may also be a year and/or flex rating to particular skier issue (weight, height, style, etc.) - mine are both medium, but the doubledecks are stiffer and a year older.

Also, relevant to your last posts, my two GS Atomics are Double Deck and G9 - not the same. They ski very differently: both jam, but the G9s flex in a way that reminds me of the smooth evenness of the pair of Rossis I tried (and of my Rossi SLs), and they initiate the turn much more easily. I think different flex-rating and year often ski very differently.

 

[Johnny V.]

The G9 series is lighter also.

 

[ski otter 2]

You know, not being able to ski now, this thread is nice.

And I am very grateful still that the last day I got to ski this season, eight days ago, I was on those Atomic 188/30 G9s for hours, just letting them run with one inch of fresh.

 

[razie]

I don't honestly ski my 30s much, have the FIS Fischers and Heads from when I was coaching - hills here are too small to enjoy those properly outside of a course. Even on big hills, they get up to speed quickly and the trails suddenly become very narrow and crowded, I find (I used to do this first tracks at a mountain and do 2 full speed top to bottom runs before the patrollers come out and that was a ton of fun). And if I'm not going to go fast on them, they ain't happy and if they ain't happy they ain't carving and then what's the point.

I find the 23-25 range more useful as an adult joker (master my a$$). I think the 18-20m which often feels like a slower and beefier Slalom ski is quite nice to bend... that would be more like my one ski, if I needed just one ski although my goto is still the disco sticks for now, as I'm still working on dialling in this or that... for the first like 2 turns and then I get carried away with just skiing

 

[hbear]

Need a bunch of space for the 30s.
I find the 182-85 (25-27m) “FIS” skis a pile of fun. Don’t care for the masters versions as they are a bit too soft, I still opt for the full blown race versions (just in shorter spec)