Race Tune/Soft Snow

[Long Hair Hippy]

Ok, not a racer here, just kind of a geek when it comes to useless knowledge…..I was watching the women’s SL in Germany the other day. The race commentators (Steve Perino and AJ Kit I think ) were commentating that snow conditions were getting very soft. AJ Kit said something to the effect of using a ski with a sharper edge tune in the softer snow will help. This sounded kind of counter intuitive to me…. wouldn’t the softer snow actually negate the need for a sharper or more aggressive tune? It seems when I’m skiing on hard pack or boilerplate the tune is really noticeable but in softer snow not so much. But then again I’m not racing either. Probably a silly question but I’m just curious. Perhaps I misunderstood his comments?

 

[François Pugh]

You NEED a sharp tune with ice. A sharp tune still makes a difference with soft snow; it cuts through it better, with less resistance. A sharp knife works best, even if you are only cutting soft cake or ice cream.

 

[Long Hair Hippy]

You NEED a sharp tune with ice. A sharp tune still makes a difference with soft snow; it cuts through it better, with less resistance. A sharp knife works best, even if you are only cutting soft cake or ice cream.

A good analogy

Thanks

 

[cantunamunch]

AJ Kit said something to the effect of using a ski with a sharper edge tune in the softer snow will help. This sounded kind of counter intuitive to me…. wouldn’t the softer snow actually negate the need for a sharper or more aggressive tune? It seems when I’m skiing on hard pack or boilerplate the tune is really noticeable but in softer snow not so much.

He's talking about edge effectiveness.

Think about a highly edged situation where a skier has only so much body weight to press the ski edge v down into the surface.

When the ski contacts the walls of a deep V-groove of soft snow, that contact ^lifts the ski up a bit. Since the maximum down force is limited by skier body weight (as modified by tipping angle), there is less force applied to the cusp of the edge itself.

Notice that getting the same or similar edging results with less net force pretty much demands sharper edges.

His observation is even more on point if we include more aggressive sidewall shaping within the concept of "sharper edge tune".


If you like analogies, think of the above V-groove concept as "hull lift".

 

[Long Hair Hippy]

He's talking about edge effectiveness.

Think about a highly edged situation where a skier has only so much body weight to press the ski edge v down into the surface.

When the ski contacts the walls of a deep V-groove of soft snow, that contact ^lifts the ski up a bit. Since the maximum down force is limited by skier body weight (as modified by tipping angle), there is less force applied to the cusp of the edge itself.

Notice that getting the same or similar edging results with less net force pretty much demands sharper edges.

His observation is even more on point if we include more aggressive sidewall shaping within the concept of "sharper edge tune".


If you like analogies, think of the above V-groove concept as "hull lift".

So in effect using a sharper edge and a more aggressive sidewall shape will provide more lift and less friction with-out the need for excessive edge pressure or force in the softer snow conditions.
Makes perfect sense……at least I think.

 

[cantunamunch]

So in effect using a sharper edge and a more aggressive sidewall shape will provide more lift and less friction with-out the need for excessive edge pressure or force in the softer snow conditions.
Makes perfect sense……at least I think.

Well, you will check if we think alike - I think of it as:

Hardpack:

Downforce (skier weight, tipping angle)/surface area of edge -> sharper edges are advantaged.

Soft snow

(Downforce - lift)/surface area of edge -> sharper edges are advantaged.

 

[Jacques]

Ok, not a racer here, just kind of a geek when it comes to useless knowledge…..I was watching the women’s SL in Germany the other day. The race commentators (Steve Perino and AJ Kit I think ) were commentating that snow conditions were getting very soft. AJ Kit said something to the effect of using a ski with a sharper edge tune in the softer snow will help. This sounded kind of counter intuitive to me…. wouldn’t the softer snow actually negate the need for a sharper or more aggressive tune? It seems when I’m skiing on hard pack or boilerplate the tune is really noticeable but in softer snow not so much. But then again I’m not racing either. Probably a silly question but I’m just curious. Perhaps I misunderstood his comments?

Sharpen those edges and go with big side angles! That's what he said!

No matter soft or ice.

 

[Primoz]

There's few things... first, it depends if it's SL/GS or SG/DH. For tech event's it's pretty much always same tune, for speed, when there's really icy, they add some extra sharpness, as extra sharp edges slow down skis, and you don't really want that on speed events. But thing is, even "not extra sharp" edges are still razor sharp, and even "soft slushy track" is still super icy for normal skiing conditions people encounter in ski resorts

 

[James]

There's few things... first, it depends if it's SL/GS or SG/DH. For tech event's it's pretty much always same tune, for speed, when there's really icy, they add some extra sharpness, as extra sharp edges slow down skis, and you don't really want that on speed events. But thing is, even "not extra sharp" edges are still razor sharp, and even "soft slushy track" is still super icy for normal skiing conditions people encounter in ski resorts

Lol, yeah "not sharp" has a different meaning on wcup then most people here use. I remember hearing Bode in Sochi talk about skis needing to be essentially, as dull as possible to do the job. That would likely still be very sharp. Would love to hear his tech's take on it considering Bode han't sharpened a ski in 15 years.

I remember Tomba complaining about his "skis were too sharp" at Nagano in '98. He was pretty much done by then though.

Lots of people on skis that are essentially unsharpenable without a base grind. Use magnification to look at the other edges. I did this onetime when sharpening someones skis. Could not get the front sharp. Looked at it and sure enough someone had "detuned" them at a 45 angle. I had to tell the guy that essentially this ski could never be sharp up there.