race room ski too grippy

[tinymoose]

I'm team leave it alone and ski them a bit first. I've been trying to force myself to mostly ski my SL skis the last couple years, in most conditions. I'm also in Eastern PA. It isn't always easy for me, as they definitely want to hook up and not slide at times I'd prefer they slide, but to some extent that's operator error on my part. I think skiing them and adjusting to the ski has, in the end, only improved my skiing. My skis are set at a .5 base/3 side. It definitely takes some adjustment for me, especially coming from my wider Yumis that are set at 1 base/2 side. The Yumis are WAY more forgiving, but also allow me to be technically more sloppy with my skiing.

 

[tube77]

Tube77,

Its tough to really tell whats going on with your ski. I have bought a fair number of used skis with tunes all over the place (and some new ones too). A "factory fresh" grind from SKIMD has always solved the issue. From my experience, a base bevel that varies along the edge length (say from .5 to 1.0) will screw up the way a ski performs. It causes a somewhat random effect hooking up funny and unpredictable. Super sharp skis with low base bevels (0.25-.5) can feel overly grabby on certain snows, but it usually goes away as the edges dull. We usually like a ski than can slide in a controllable manner or grip as required.

I have taken my slalom skis into heavily moguled steep glades and had the tips grip rather than slip at times. The times are always when I don't want them to grip. I think this is just the nature of the ski and how torsionally stiff it is. My all mtn skis don't do this on the same glade. Just the nature of the ski and I typically don't use my SL race skis off piste much for that reason. If your skis are doing it on groomers, that is probably an indication is something is off with the tune or your binding mount position.

I have never experienced a base structure effecting how a ski turns myself, but I know knowledgeable people who claim it can. It seems like it would have to be a really deep structure in sticky snow to cause a problem.

Thank you for your additional comments!
I ruled out the possibility of the binding position from experiment. I moved the binding one click back and forth to see if how it goes (atomic var).
I totally agree that the fresh grind full tuning work by reliable a tech will highly likely fix the issue but it might cost more than the price that I paid for this flat skis.. T.T
That's why I am asking around a few options that I can try from home.
I did some de-tune from tip to tail as you suggested but haven't tested it yet.
Will see how it goes. Thanks a bunch!!

 

[Seldomski]

@tube77
I had some awkward grippy skis once. It was primarily due to the bindings being set incorrectly. There was a gap between the toe piece and the bottom of the boot. So the toe of my boots was moving vertically about .25 to 0.50 inches in the binding. That coupled with sharp skis on grippy snow was a very challenging combination.

I had the skis retuned. The shop said there was a burr along the length of the edge. I am not sure if that was true or not, but whatever they did helped the situation. Later (probably 6 or so skiing days), I had the toe piece fixed. I did not know it was problem when I had the skis tuned. Things became much better after that. I have no shop I trust to put a good edge on my skis, so I am not sure how they would ski now with the toes fixed and the edges very sharp.

Anyway, put your boot in the binding and see if there is an air gap under the toe or the heel. Sharp skis need a precision interface to your boot.

 

[tube77]

@tube77
I had some awkward grippy skis once. It was primarily due to the bindings being set incorrectly. There was a gap between the toe piece and the bottom of the boot. So the toe of my boots was moving vertically about .25 to 0.50 inches in the binding. That coupled with sharp skis on grippy snow was a very challenging combination.

I had the skis retuned. The shop said there was a burr along the length of the edge. I am not sure if that was true or not, but whatever they did helped the situation. Later (probably 6 or so skiing days), I had the toe piece fixed. I did not know it was problem when I had the skis tuned. Things became much better after that. I have no shop I trust to put a good edge on my skis, so I am not sure how they would ski now with the toes fixed and the edges very sharp.

Anyway, put your boot in the binding and see if there is an air gap under the toe or the heel. Sharp skis need a precision interface to your boot.

That's something that I never realized..
I will definitely take a look!!
Thanks you!!

 

[James]

So the toe of my boots was moving vertically about .25 to 0.50 inches in the binding.

1/4-1/2 inch?? Don’t see how that’s possible. Curious. Any photos perchance?

 

[Seldomski]

1/4-1/2 inch?? Don’t see how that’s possible. Curious. Any photos perchance?

Binding is Tyrolia Attack 13 Binding. The screw adjusting the height of the platform under the toe was not adjusted by the shop that set the binding release. I could feel the movement under the toe if I leaned fore/aft on the skis, but I didn't know that was abnormal. I trusted the shop to set the bindings correctly (they used my boots when setting the release), but they were evidently incompetent.

Edit to add - I have no pictures of the gap between the toe/binding.

 

[Jacques]

Actually it’s opposite.
There’s no structure engraved right next to the base edges as it progresses from under the foot to tip and tail.
The structure is like usual worldcup skis.
There’s thin straight strip (about waist width) of the structure only in the middle of skis along the length direction.

Still, it can be too deep and peaky. What you describe is a structure issue.

 

[Doug Briggs]

Photos of the base structure would get you more informed answers to your questions.

 

[markojp]

Actually it’s opposite.
There’s no structure engraved right next to the base edges as it progresses from under the foot to tip and tail.
The structure is like usual worldcup skis.
There’s thin straight strip (about waist width) of the structure only in the middle of skis along the length direction.

That's correct. We're talking about how aggressive that 'middle' strip is. Run your finger across it from left to right. Does it feel like shark skin? Noticeably rough? If so, that may be the issue.

 

[Doug Briggs]

I am often surprised by the depth of structure on new skis. We put on a pretty fine diagonal structure most all season long for our dry Rocky Mountain snow.

 

[markojp]

I have never experienced a base structure effecting how a ski turns myself, but I know knowledgeable people who claim it can. It seems like it would have to be a really deep structure in sticky snow to cause a problem.

It does not have to be wet and sticky snow. And yes I will 'claim' with actual experience that too aggressive a base grind can be a very real thing. I've shared this before.... A couple years back, I sold a friend a Head iSL RD. He'd skied mine and liked them. I told him he'd need to have the edge levels set (recommended .75/3 for his intended usage) but that the factory base was pretty darn good. He took his new pair to a shop that doesn't do many race skis, but do a nice job on all mountain rec skis.

He called and told me the skis wouldn't go sideways at all. He couldn't even demo a pivot slip. I grabbed them a couple days later, popped them on, took three skates toward the chair, and knew something was amiss. Popped a ski off, took off a glove and ran a bare finger across the ski. Felt like shark's skin. The tuner had ground over a perfectly good factory structure and did some kind of crazy longitutinal aggro texrure that you could have lit a match on in addition to setting the edges bevels. I did make one run on an easy green, and it was just kooky scary. I took them back to our shop and did a full do-over base structure. Problem solved.

 

[Jacques]

I am often surprised by the depth of structure on new skis. We put on a pretty fine diagonal structure most all season long for our dry Rocky Mountain snow.

I have seen very deep peaky structures on super fat powder skis such as Armada JJ's and DPS Wailer's.
Go figure. Why do that on a dedicated powder ski?

 

[markojp]

Thank you for your additional comments!
I ruled out the possibility of the binding position from experiment. I moved the binding one click back and forth to see if how it goes (atomic var).
I totally agree that the fresh grind full tuning work by reliable a tech will highly likely fix the issue but it might cost more than the price that I paid for this flat skis.. T.T
That's why I am asking around a few options that I can try from home.
I did some de-tune from tip to tail as you suggested but haven't tested it yet.
Will see how it goes. Thanks a bunch!!

Don't detune SL ski tips and tails... you'll be effectively castrating them.

 

[Doug Briggs]

I have seen very deep peaky structures on super fat powder skis such as Armada JJ's and DPS Wailer's.
Go figure. Why do that on a dedicated powder ski?

Cowboys running the grinder.

Some top brand skis come in with practically zero structure as well. It really is a crap shoot as to what you'll get when you unwrap a new pair of skis.

 

[Doug Briggs]

Don't detune SL ski tips and tails... you'll be effectively castrating them.

People need to define their 'de-tune'. De-tuning can go all the way from using a file to round the edges to just a few light passes of a gummi with an infinite number of intermediate steps in between. It all depends on who you are talking about.

 

[tube77]

It does not have to be wet and sticky snow. And yes I will 'claim' with actual experience that too aggressive a base grind can be a very real thing. I've shared this before.... A couple years back, I sold a friend a Head iSL RD. He'd skied mine and liked them. I told him he'd need to have the edge levels set (recommended .75/3 for his intended usage) but that the factory base was pretty darn good. He took his new pair to a shop that doesn't do many race skis, but do a nice job on all mountain rec skis.

He called and told me the skis wouldn't go sideways at all. He couldn't even demo a pivot slip. I grabbed them a couple days later, popped them on, took three skates toward the chair, and knew something was amiss. Popped a ski off, took off a glove and ran a bare finger across the ski. Felt like shark's skin. The tuner had ground over a perfectly good factory structure and did some kind of crazy longitutinal aggro texrure that you could have lit a match on in addition to setting the edges bevels. I did make one run on an easy green, and it was just kooky scary. I took them back to our shop and did a full do-over base structure. Problem solved.

Thank you so much sharing your experience!

 

[oldschoolskier]

That's my thinking..but as I haven't skied pure race room skis with 0.5 base I couldn't really tell..
Though it carves super well and allows me draw a right half circle. I could really rely on this one.
But it gives me quite weird sensation when I was skidding, side slipping or pivoting other than pure carving especially on machine made fresh soft snows.
The snow drags either tip or tail side against my control like burrs do.
Currently, it's burr clean.
It sounds like 0.5 base it not the culprit.. I may try slight de-tune the whole edge a bit to see how it goes if the too sharp edge is the problem..

Think of base bevel as the old detune. It determines how fast the edges engage.

With a race ski they are torsionally stiff, which in turn improves response.

Basically what you are experiencing is too much input on your part. You need to learn to feather the edge more or it wants to try and engage. This is the side to side balance and edge feel thing.

Remember you are on skis that will do what you tell them, right or wrong. Just an FYI GS skis aggressively tuned will not put up with this and try and kill you. SL’s in comparison are forgiving.

Master the ski don’t let the ski master you.

 

[markojp]

I don't find much of a difference. GS skis and SL skis are both reactive. Properly tuned, they can be skied fast or slow. Both will get you into trouble if you're skiing faster than your ability to keep them under you.

 

[Atomicman]

Go to a true clean 1 degree and they will ski fine. The base bevel controls how quickly the skis gets on edge. not how grippy the ski is. More how grabby the ski is.

A 1/3 is an excellent tune that is not going to compromise the performance of that ski.

The other option rather then detuning the tips and tails is to slightly increase the base bevel in those areas, but leaving them sharp. You could do this incrementally. Try a .75...ski on it. If not satisfactory go to a 1. Although I must admit I prefer a consistent base bevel.

Man made snow tends to be very grabby with lesser amount of base bevel.

 

[Atomicman]

It does not have to be wet and sticky snow. And yes I will 'claim' with actual experience that too aggressive a base grind can be a very real thing. I've shared this before.... A couple years back, I sold a friend a Head iSL RD. He'd skied mine and liked them. I told him he'd need to have the edge levels set (recommended .75/3 for his intended usage) but that the factory base was pretty darn good. He took his new pair to a shop that doesn't do many race skis, but do a nice job on all mountain rec skis.

He called and told me the skis wouldn't go sideways at all. He couldn't even demo a pivot slip. I grabbed them a couple days later, popped them on, took three skates toward the chair, and knew something was amiss. Popped a ski off, took off a glove and ran a bare finger across the ski. Felt like shark's skin. The tuner had ground over a perfectly good factory structure and did some kind of crazy longitutinal aggro texrure that you could have lit a match on in addition to setting the edges bevels. I did make one run on an easy green, and it was just kooky scary. I took them back to our shop and did a full do-over base structure. Problem solved.

Where this becomes very problematic is if the structure continues into the base edge. Which I have seen. Miserable to ski on!