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Marker

Making fresh tracks
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I've never seen this addressed, so are boots in their largest size stiffer than their smaller sizes in the way skis that are? I'm a bit on the larger size myself and have moved towards the longest stiffer skis even though I'm really just an intermediate skier. I've been in Lange RS 130's in 30.5 for the last 2 years in order to get good heel hold on my narrowish feet. At first my whole set up felt perhaps too stiff until I realized I could relax and let it rip with the support provided! By the end of that season, I felt a whole new sense of balance on my skis. I decided it was the boots more than the skis, but what do I know?
 

CalG

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A good skier can ski a "too soft " boot better than an advancing skier can handle a too stiff boot.

And "Stiff" means resistance to forward flex. High flex numbers are STIFF! There is no metric for lateral compliance. It is assumed to be Zero in all cases. Perhaps the boot makers need to be more forthcoming.
 

oldschoolskier

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Beginner boot....generally soft flex, allows a boot to be very forgiving of errors. Very important when starting off and learning. Soft boots though quickly limit learning once the correct moves are learned as the forgiveness then gives false impression of making an error.

Intermediate boot....generally stiffer for better response and feedback. Now weight, strength and intended use start to become an issue.

Advanced/Expert.....general stiff (there are exceptions and those skiers are fully aware of the reasons) as they offer immediate feedback and input.

Application, weight and other factors play a role. Most important in all is Fit.

You can always go up a little to develop into but don’t overdo.

One thing not mentioned is skis in this equation. There must be a balance here. Soft boot will not provide enough input into stiffer higher level skis. Stiff boots (unless used by an experienced skier) will provide to much input into soft beginner skis. Keep skis and boot matched level wise within reason.
 

Doby Man

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I think the key to a stiff boot isn't just the stiffness itself but also or, even more so, the distance of flex travel that different flex ratings offer. A stiff boot will offer the ability to pressure the shovel and the tails of the ski within about a half inch of fore and aft flex travel of the upper cuff. A soft boot will require up to two inches or more for the flex to top out and bottom out before that force can transmit pressure to the tips and tales of the ski. Getting the same results with less movement is a key to good ski dev. Not until an advancing skier finds a boot with a shell that lies close to the foot due to similar foot to shell shape with a thin and firm liner are they are really allowed to start skiing with their feet in a manner that is going to make a difference. It is this type of skier development with their ski boots that must align with technical dev to avoid unnecessary plateaus in the development of technique. Just like the saying that you can tell a lot about the person by the shoes they wear, it is even more true regarding the ski boots on their feet. Keeping up with the right boots is a life-long process for the career skier. At the same time, wearing 600 dollar Jimmy Choo's to a keg party reminds me of an advanced intermediate club racer wearing Head Raptor 150's. Either way, things are not going to look good.

Learning and understanding how a ski boot is supposed to fit one's personal anatomy, work with one's individual technique and progress with one's specific rate of development rather than blindly following the advice of others, no matter how revered a boot fitter may be, is a major key to the success of all good skiers. Same goes for instruction and coaches. Like great bootfitters, their access to impact will always be significantly limited or advanced by the level of ownership taken by the customer.
 

Monique

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I think the key to a stiff boot isn't just the stiffness itself but also or, even more so, the distance of flex travel that different flex ratings offer. A stiff boot will offer the ability to pressure the shovel and the tails of the ski within about a half inch of fore and aft flex travel of the upper cuff. A soft boot will require up to two inches or more for the flex to top out and bottom out before that force can transmit pressure to the tips and tales of the ski. Getting the same results with less movement is a key to good ski dev. Not until an advancing skier finds a boot with a shell that lies close to the foot due to similar foot to shell shape with a thin and firm liner are they are really allowed to start skiing with their feet in a manner that is going to make a difference. It is this type of skier development with their ski boots that must align with technical dev to avoid unnecessary plateaus in the development of technique. Just like the saying that you can tell a lot about the person by the shoes they wear, it is even more true regarding the ski boots on their feet. Keeping up with the right boots is a life-long process for the career skier. At the same time, wearing 600 dollar Jimmy Choo's to a keg party reminds me of an advanced intermediate club racer wearing Head Raptor 150's. Either way, things are not going to look good.

Learning and understanding how a ski boot is supposed to fit one's personal anatomy, work with one's individual technique and progress with one's specific rate of development rather than blindly following the advice of others, no matter how revered a boot fitter may be, is a major key to the success of all good skiers. Same goes for instruction and coaches. Like great bootfitters, their access to impact will always be significantly limited or advanced by the level of ownership taken by the customer.

A recent revelation when getting fit by Chuck in Breckenridge: you won't be able to flex the boot properly, regardless of its stiffness rating, if it doesn't match your anatomy - meaning that it needs to be in proper contact all along from the foot up through the ankle and the shin. My new boots are stiffer than ones I've had in the past, but they fit better and I can flex them easily.

Maybe this explains why I couldn't flex the Dalbello Kryptons for crap, even with the softest tongue. Too bad - they were incredibly comfortable. Although my new boots are, too.
 

razie

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:golfclap:

Now... I haven't quoted myself (which I absolutely love doing) in a long time, so here goes:

"What's too stiff" is not a simple equation: my 13 yo, at 115 lbs can crush his 110 flex cuffs at will. Not that he should... but it's a function of technique, body type and boot setup...

In fact quite a few along this thread pointed out the role of setting up the boot to the skier, in the flex equation.

Fore/aft setup of boots is the most complex and least understood I think, of all setup options.

Too often, lack of good fore/aft setup is replaced by a boot that's too soft, one which cannot support even 1g without collapsing and causing the skier to back off.

Let that tint the flex and development argument
 

Doby Man

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@Monique, you are correct the the right fore/aft boot setup can provide more leverage to be able to flex a stiffer boot and thus the ability to drive the ski with more power. There are two types of flex that we get from each boot. There is functional flex where the entire upper cuff rotates forward from hinge rotation and material flex from bending plastic. While boots derive their flex rating and rebound characteristics from both the structure of the boot and the durometer of the plastic, many rely on one more than the other. Separate of actual flex rating, the accumulative ramp angle, forward lean, flex distribution (range/location), cuff height relative to shin length and location of flex hinge relative to location of ankle hinge are all factors that could be considered when choosing a boot and identifying all the geometrical parameters that make a boot feel the way it does to an individual. These are all factors, the result of which can make a stiffer or softer boot flex more appropriate. Not until the fore/aft geometry of boot setup is dialed in to produce a certain element of leverage over the boot will a skier know exactly how much actual boot flex they can handle under these specific geometric circumstances. The Krypton has a low flex hinge that is closer to most anatomy in a manner that allows the boot to “flex” from the bottom, or hinge, more than to bend from the top. Many skiers that ski a stiff boot with stiff shell material and a high hinge point are getting their anatomical flexion from bending the shell plastic itself and more so out of the top of the boot and are getting very little to no actual boot hinge rotation at all. This is why I believe many skiing a stiff boot go to a stretchable power strap like the Booster which makes the boot easier to bend out of the top but not the bottom (having no effect on the hinge) and an “ease” that actually makes it more difficult to apply full boot flexion pressure which originates at the hinge. The higher the hinge on the boot is compared to the ankle of the foot, the more that hinge is “blocked” from rotating and thus forcing the plastic to bend more. This type of high hinge design allows the manufacture more control over flex rating based on shell material used which is much less complicated than changing the architecture of the boot. Bending stiff plastic seems to work well for the most powerful skiers in heavy torque circumstances but it also reduces opportunity for less powerful skiers to “round out” a carved turn with ample amounts of plantar flexion in turn entry and dorsiflexion in the “belly” of the turn. A boot with a stiff lateral flex and a softer forward flex will conspire better with a ski that is stiffer torsionally but softer in longitudinal flex.
 

Monique

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The Krypton has a low flex hinge that is closer to most anatomy in a manner that allows the boot to “flex” from the bottom, or hinge, more than to bend from the top. Many skiers that ski a stiff boot with stiff shell material and a high hinge point are getting their anatomical flexion from bending the shell plastic itself and more so out of the top of the boot and are getting very little to no actual boot hinge rotation at all.

Bending stiff plastic seems to work well for the most powerful skiers in heavy torque circumstances but it also reduces opportunity for less powerful skiers to “round out” a carved turn with ample amounts of plantar flexion in turn entry and dorsiflexion in the “belly” of the turn. A boot with a stiff lateral flex and a softer forward flex will conspire better with a ski that is stiffer torsionally but softer in longitudinal flex.

Oof. That's a lot of dense material to process! Good, but dense.

For my particulars, then, where I had trouble flexing the Krypton Storm but not the stiffer Fischer (which to be fair is a 110, which I think is somewhat high for a women's recreational boot, but it looks like the full women's line goes from 80 to 150, so maybe not - numerically it's higher than anything I've ever skied, but we know how numbers compare) - so anyway, what does that mean for me? Does it mean that I prefer a high hinge point, or just that the Fischer happened to conform better to my shin/ankle anatomy? I have relatively stiff ankle flexion (thus heel lifts). I'm overweight and I would not consider myself a powerful skier, but I believe I am strong in the absolute sense (not in strength to body weight ratio) compared to women my height who are not so big. Maybe I'm more powerful than I think, or the 110 isn't actually that stiff, or ...?

That last sentence is of interest, as I definitely gravitate toward exactly that - torsionally stiff, but a bit softer lengthwise.
 

Monique

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^^ @Doby Man or maybe this is me!

but it also reduces opportunity for less powerful skiers to “round out” a carved turn with ample amounts of plantar flexion in turn entry and dorsiflexion in the “belly” of the turn.
 

Len K

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A recent revelation when getting fit by Chuck in Breckenridge: you won't be able to flex the boot properly, regardless of its stiffness rating, if it doesn't match your anatomy

Any contact information for "Chuck"?
 

oldschoolskier

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In all fairness to the header of the thread, flex depends on skill and application. Pivot point of the hinge while interacting with flex is not the driving factor. Funny as it sounds even though there are variations in ankle joint locations, the overall movement and humans ability to adapt basically reduces the importance of the pivot point in “most cases” (there are exceptions).

However, how the energy (as in how much and when) is transmitted to the is very dependent on flex. Too stiff, any error is instantly magnified, too soft and it appears like you are making mistakes (by providing no input). Just right and you appear to be skiing well.

IMHO, boot flex depends on ability and skis selected. For the record proper fit is a given and assumed. Pivot point is a final tweak if required on rare occasions.
 

Josh Matta

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Oof. That's a lot of dense material to process! Good, but dense.

For my particulars, then, where I had trouble flexing the Krypton Storm but not the stiffer Fischer (which to be fair is a 110, which I think is somewhat high for a women's recreational boot, but it looks like the full women's line goes from 80 to 150, so maybe not - numerically it's higher than anything I've ever skied, but we know how numbers compare) - so anyway, what does that mean for me? Does it mean that I prefer a high hinge point, or just that the Fischer happened to conform better to my shin/ankle anatomy? I have relatively stiff ankle flexion (thus heel lifts). I'm overweight and I would not consider myself a powerful skier, but I believe I am strong in the absolute sense (not in strength to body weight ratio) compared to women my height who are not so big. Maybe I'm more powerful than I think, or the 110 isn't actually that stiff, or ...?

That last sentence is of interest, as I definitely gravitate toward exactly that - torsionally stiff, but a bit softer lengthwise.

the storm was more upright..... My KR2 at their stock ramp were basically impossible to flex even with the soft tongue in for me, I now run a decidely unstock ramp, and unstock forward flex, and I cant flext them but because the ramp/forward lean are correct it does nt matter. Ramp/forward leans has far more to do with how stiff or soft a boot feels than anyone realizes into they start to play around with ramp/forward lean.
 

Josh Matta

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A good skier can ski a "too soft " boot better than an advancing skier can handle a too stiff boot.

And "Stiff" means resistance to forward flex. High flex numbers are STIFF! There is no metric for lateral compliance. It is assumed to be Zero in all cases. Perhaps the boot makers need to be more forthcoming.

On less than flat snow, I feel very scared skiing a soft boot, as hitting any undulation makes my ankle flex, and my COM move far more than I ever would want it to.

Concrete boots for life!
 

CalG

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On less than flat snow, I feel very scared skiing a soft boot, as hitting any undulation makes my ankle flex, and my COM move far more than I ever would want it to.

Concrete boots for life!

Perhaps a useful drill for you would be to ski with the upper buckles released.
Standing over ones skis is a useful skill to develop.
Anticipation comes with observation.
 

Josh Matta

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yeah CalG i have probably spent more time skiing with my boots un buckled than most people have spent skiing. most people have no idea or are uncap able are ripping full bore GS turns though broken, lumpy snow. On soft boots my achilles feels like it will exploded doing that, in my concrete boots, I can do anything I want.

Remember when you critiquing the way I ski at the last Eastern team tryout I was 17th, they took 16. I won the skiing portion of the last Dev team tryout. I am certain the PSIA values "standing over ones skis" more than the joe Q public and they think I am pretty good at it.

So here is some video of my in broken snow, at what point in time was I unable to stand over my skis? BTW the 160lb girl was in a 140 flex boot, and the 130 lb girl was in 130 flex boot, both ramped appropriatly.


Do you have any 3rd person video of you skiing? especially in broken up nonsensitive snow.

I do love how there is basically certain subset on this forum just like on epicski, who will take any advice I give people as sign of my own weakness, not realizing how unknowledgable they are being, who they are talking to, and in this regard about boot flex, that the closer you can get to unmovable concrete boot the better off you will ski in all conditions.
 

François Pugh

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On less than flat snow, I feel very scared skiing a soft boot, as hitting any undulation makes my ankle flex, and my COM move far more than I ever would want it to.

Concrete boots for life!
I wouldn't go so far as feeling scared (I don't scare easily), but I can recall skiing my soft (100 flex Crossmax) boots and being able to kiss my ski tips after hitting a snow making whale that I didn't see until too late because the snow making higher up had obscured my goggles. Had I been skiing my stiff boots, I would not have been too far forward.
 

oldschoolskier

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I learned to ski in leather lace up boots, beat that for soft....(my avatar shows me lace up boots).

I must agree with Josh that a correct stance in the boot does change how it feels, and yes if it comes to a choice stiff boots are the only choice.
 
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Coach13

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yeah CalG i have probably spent more time skiing with my boots un buckled than most people have spent skiing. most people have no idea or are uncap able are ripping full bore GS turns though broken, lumpy snow. On soft boots my achilles feels like it will exploded doing that, in my concrete boots, I can do anything I want.

Remember when you critiquing the way I ski at the last Eastern team tryout I was 17th, they took 16. I won the skiing portion of the last Dev team tryout. I am certain the PSIA values "standing over ones skis" more than the joe Q public and they think I am pretty good at it.

So here is some video of my in broken snow, at what point in time was I unable to stand over my skis? BTW the 160lb girl was in a 140 flex boot, and the 130 lb girl was in 130 flex boot, both ramped appropriatly.


Do you have any 3rd person video of you skiing? especially in broken up nonsensitive snow.

I do love how there is basically certain subset on this forum just like on epicski, who will take any advice I give people as sign of my own weakness, not realizing how unknowledgable they are being, who they are talking to, and in this regard about boot flex, that the closer you can get to unmovable concrete boot the better off you will ski in all conditions.

That’s some pretty solid, balanced skiing. Period.
 

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