Question on ski boot flex and skier development

[Josh Matta]

Thanks man, coming to topic on hand.

Balance is something that no matter how good you are it, the less variables you can take out of the better you will be. Its the reason why I advocate skiers who have good fundamentals to try to aligned right and ski in stiffest boot they can handle at their worst, the less mistakes a skiers make the less boot has to flex to accommodate those mistake.

Softer boots even when properly aligned make every undulation, change in snow and roll apparent, they also respond SLOWER to new inputs to correct those mistake, its like doubled edge sword to a good skier. Basically imagine hitting a hump and getting thrown forward though the front of the boot, and your rear ward movement back is dulled by the softness of the boot, with a stiffer boot aligned properly you will have never got thrown forward in the first place.

Same goes for skis, LONGER, Stiffer skis, are easier to ski in broken if you are doing correct progressive movements and the tail is following the tip, if you push sideways, pivot, or are off balance, then longer stiffer skis become VERY hard to ski and shorter/softer skis are easier to pivot, push sideways and ski off balance.

 

[oldschoolskier]

Thanks man, coming to topic on hand.

Balance is something that no matter how good you are it, the less variables you can take out of the better you will be. Its the reason why I advocate skiers who have good fundamentals to try to aligned right and ski in stiffest boot they can handle at their worst, the less mistakes a skiers make the less boot has to flex to accommodate those mistake.

Softer boots even when properly aligned make every undulation, change in snow and roll apparent, they also respond SLOWER to new inputs to correct those mistake, its like doubled edge sword to a good skier. Basically imagine hitting a hump and getting thrown forward though the front of the boot, and your rear ward movement back is dulled by the softness of the boot, with a stiffer boot aligned properly you will have never got thrown forward in the first place.

Same goes for skis, LONGER, Stiffer skis, are easier to ski in broken if you are doing correct progressive movements and the tail is following the tip, if you push sideways, pivot, or are off balance, then longer stiffer skis become VERY hard to ski and shorter/softer skis are easier to pivot, push sideways and ski off balance.

Glad I’m not the only one preaching this, and some of the really qualified instructors are.

 

[Coach13]

Softer boots even when properly aligned make every undulation, change in snow and roll apparent, they also respond SLOWER to new inputs to correct those mistake, its like doubled edge sword to a good skier. Basically imagine hitting a hump and getting thrown forward though the front of the boot, and your rear ward movement back is dulled by the softness of the boot, with a stiffer boot aligned properly you will have never got thrown forward in the first place.

I guess I really only understood half of the boot - skier relationship. I always knew that a solter boot responded slower to skier inputs/movements, but never made the connection to a skier getting tossed around easier in a softer vs a stiff boot. Makes sense though.

 

[Noodler]

In all fairness to the header of the thread, flex depends on skill and application. Pivot point of the hinge while interacting with flex is not the driving factor. Funny as it sounds even though there are variations in ankle joint locations, the overall movement and humans ability to adapt basically reduces the importance of the pivot point in “most cases” (there are exceptions).

However, how the energy (as in how much and when) is transmitted to the is very dependent on flex. Too stiff, any error is instantly magnified, too soft and it appears like you are making mistakes (by providing no input). Just right and you appear to be skiing well.

IMHO, boot flex depends on ability and skis selected. For the record proper fit is a given and assumed. Pivot point is a final tweak if required on rare occasions.

The positioning of the hinge points on a boot shell actually has a very direct impact on a number of characteristics of a boot; flex pattern not withstanding. The position of the medial and lateral hinges in relation to each other has an impact on knee tracking and the overall height of the hinges in relation to the ankle joint also can create challenges for the proper operation of the ankle joint (a gliding joint).

You may not agree with everything Harald Harb or David McPhail have to say, but on the subject of boot design there are clear implications of the hinge point positions.

 

[CalG]

Thanks man, coming to topic on hand.

Balance is something that no matter how good you are it, the less variables you can take out of the better you will be. Its the reason why I advocate skiers who have good fundamentals to try to aligned right and ski in stiffest boot they can handle at their worst, the less mistakes a skiers make the less boot has to flex to accommodate those mistake.

Softer boots even when properly aligned make every undulation, change in snow and roll apparent, they also respond SLOWER to new inputs to correct those mistake, its like doubled edge sword to a good skier. Basically imagine hitting a hump and getting thrown forward though the front of the boot, and your rear ward movement back is dulled by the softness of the boot, with a stiffer boot aligned properly you will have never got thrown forward in the first place.

clip

How do these sentiments apply to bumpers?

Some who spend a lot of time in the bumps are partial to "softer flex" , or so I hear.

 

[oldschoolskier]

The positioning of the hinge points on a boot shell actually has a very direct impact on a number of characteristics of a boot; flex pattern not withstanding. The position of the medial and lateral hinges in relation to each other has an impact on knee tracking and the overall height of the hinges in relation to the ankle joint also can create challenges for the proper operation of the ankle joint (a gliding joint).

You may not agree with everything Harald Harb or David McPhail have to say, but on the subject of boot design there are clear implications of the hinge point positions.

My right ankle and right knee joints are no longer aligned the way GOD intended, I broke my shin playing soccer and the cast to fix it was misaligned. I was given a choice come back in a year they’ll break it again and fix it.....NOT!!!!! That was 39 years ago.

No I don’t have any specially tweaked boots, just a simple cuff alignment and off the shelf insole. Why mess with something that works.

Point is, most humans are very flexible and adjust to just about anything. Some just need a little help.

Flex controls rate of energy transmission, pivot point (hinge) controls comfort of flex at best.

I’ve skied different boots with different hinge points, didn’t care or notice for that matter. All I cared about was how fast they responded to my input and how much got to the ski, that is flex and rate of flex.

 

[razie]

The positioning of the hinge points on a boot shell actually has a very direct impact on a number of characteristics of a boot; flex pattern not withstanding. The position of the medial and lateral hinges in relation to each other has an impact on knee tracking and the overall height of the hinges in relation to the ankle joint also can create challenges for the proper operation of the ankle joint (a gliding joint).

You may not agree with everything Harald Harb or David McPhail have to say, but on the subject of boot design there are clear implications of the hinge point positions.

 

[Josh Matta]

How do these sentiments apply to bumpers?

Some who spend a lot of time in the bumps are partial to "softer flex" , or so I hear.

so why do they need or want softer boots? and also would skiing a softer boot affect them when not in the bumps?

 

[Hamid S]

There is a lot of mythology about ski boots and the role of ankle flex and boot flex in performance skiing. Many skiers still insist that we must be able to flex our ankles deeply as part of creating ski performance. Without getting into too much side-tracking detail, I'll just ask a question I've often asked: How do skis respond to "boot flex"? The answer, of course, is that they don't. They respond to pressure, including fore-aft pressure shifts, and as skiers, the more precisely and accurately we can regulate that pressure, the better. With the right learned skills, we can flex and extend through our full range, manage the dramatic forces of high-performance turns, and absorb large moguls, while maintaining fore-aft balance throughout. This requires the ability to find fore-aft "neutral" in our boot cuffs at all times, regardless of the degree of knee flexion or extension. If I need to "flex my boots" every time I bend my knees, I will be extremely limited in my ability to balance, flex, extend, and regulate fore-aft pressure.

Best regards,
Bob Barnes

Bob,
Your response to the OP has been somewhat of a revelation to me.
I've read it several times with great interest. However, I need some clarification:

1) I understand that I should aspire to be able to go through full vertical range of motion while remaining cuff-neutral in my ski boots. And from a physical ability perspective, I can do that while standing in my ski boots sideways in front of a mirror. But before I go out and try to do the same on blue groomers to start with, are you also suggesting that I should be able to apply tip pressure to the skis while remaining cuff-neutral? If so, how? By using balls of my feet to increase pressure on the front part of the boot shell? Can you please elaborate?

2) I am looking to replace my 10 year old boots that are 110 flex, adjusted down by 10% by using the adjuster on the spine of the boot, with 14* forward lean & 5* ramp angle. I'm trying to decide whether my new boots need to have more, less or the same forward lean?
From my far more extensive off-road motorcycle riding background, we usually set the race sag on a motorcycle to 33% of the suspension travel from fully extended to fully compressed. This would allow 2/3 of the suspension travel to absorb bumps, and 1/3 extension for the wheels to roll into dips without significantly changing the pitch of the chassis or losing contact with the dirt which would result in loss of grip or steering ability.
I can't help but to assume that one would need to do the same on skis. In other words, my fore-aft balanced position, while remaining cuff-neutral, should be with my knees bent just enough to lower my hip 1/3 of my vertical range of motion from being full extended. Does that sound right?

3) And finally, if skiing is all about remaining cuff-neutral as much as possible, then when does one intentionally tries to flex the boot? Or are boots flexed in a reactionary manner only?

TIA

PS, I know I'm addressing my questions to Bob, but specially since he has been absent for some period of time, all input would be greatly appreciated.

 

[tweaks89]

I apologize if my post has already been echoed somewhere in the last 8 pages; I've tried to read a bit but still new .

This conversation actually happened to me pretty recently. I'm not a "new" skier by any means, but this occurred when I got my Dynastar "beer league" GS skis. The shop asked me what boots I had. I had never been asked that before, not on my old all mountains, nor my Head SuperShape Rallys. Turns out, (and I had to look it up), I had some generic Head 70 flex boots. While I looked at skis, i never looked at boots which as I am now learning, may be even more important!

My point to this was, after trying on Lange RX120s, I can attest to what @Philpug mentioned, that you get a better built boot. yes the boots relatively new, but it feels solid not just the stiffness, but the build itself. I had never needed to have boots heat moulded before.. but I did with these (even needed to have them pressed out a bit). These things tell me that the boot actually fits me more; whereas those old Head boots may have been a large "catch-all".

With that said, while I think an intermediate will for sure benefit from a better boot, I'm a bit of the mindset of getting people skiing. The last thing I'd want, is to have to make many custom adjustments to a higher end boot (which seems necessary to get the best performance), which can turn a newbie away. I think once they're capable and enjoy the sport, then the good boot comes into play.

 

[oldschoolskier]

I apologize if my post has already been echoed somewhere in the last 8 pages; I've tried to read a bit but still new .

This conversation actually happened to me pretty recently. I'm not a "new" skier by any means, but this occurred when I got my Dynastar "beer league" GS skis. The shop asked me what boots I had. I had never been asked that before, not on my old all mountains, nor my Head SuperShape Rallys. Turns out, (and I had to look it up), I had some generic Head 70 flex boots. While I looked at skis, i never looked at boots which as I am now learning, may be even more important!

My point to this was, after trying on Lange RX120s, I can attest to what @Philpug mentioned, that you get a better built boot. yes the boots relatively new, but it feels solid not just the stiffness, but the build itself. I had never needed to have boots heat moulded before.. but I did with these (even needed to have them pressed out a bit). These things tell me that the boot actually fits me more; whereas those old Head boots may have been a large "catch-all".

With that said, while I think an intermediate will for sure benefit from a better boot, I'm a bit of the mindset of getting people skiing. The last thing I'd want, is to have to make many custom adjustments to a higher end boot (which seems necessary to get the best performance), which can turn a newbie away. I think once they're capable and enjoy the sport, then the good boot comes into play.

Yes it is an earlier post, soft beginner boots have a purpose. In a very simple form....They forgive gross movement errors made by beginners.

This same characteristic is what limits progression after a point, specially when a skier gets better skis. The balance of a skis response vs how fast and much input is transmitted if not correct leads to poor skiing and improper technique development.

There is a lot more than this, however it give the simple of the cause.