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markojp

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There seems to be another thing PSIA and CSIA share, a low success rate (measured by the examination pass rate).
One would think an "Instructor" organization would be better able to instruct there members.

Bust out the popcorn... Being that you're not involved in CSIA or PSIA, I don't think you have much to go on other than opinion formed from the outside looking in, and the thread quickly devolves into a bunch of folks who don't know telling those who actually participate in teaching and taking exams "this is how it is". I'd encourage you to jump in and give it a go. If you see problems in your area, work to influence things for the better.

But to the point, at higher levels of instruction certification, skiing is an athletic endeavor. Most folks don't have the time to put in enough hours on the hill both skiing and teaching to reach L3 or higher, and often even L2 (PSIA). There will never ever ever NEVER be high pass rates at higher levels. It'd be great if everyone showed up ready to pass. I know there's always enough new pins on hand to give one to everyone if it ever were to occur, and I don't know any examiners who didn't wish this was the case, but it just doesn't happen .L1 is much more difficult in our division than it was, but it's still truly is attainable by nearly anyone with some concerted effort, training, and a season or two of part time teaching. If failure rates were high at the entry level, then there'd be cause for concern. Skiing pretty ok and being able to access most of the mountain is well within most people's grasp. Ski really well is a craft honed over years and many many miles.
 
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markojp

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You forgot 7) - that basically there's no outside incentive. People do it for themselves. It's not like they're going to recoup the money spent on training/exams in increased pay beyond L2 or even that.

Not true at all for many larger and/or destination resorts and certainly many if not most around here. L3 got me a large pay bump and opportunity to train and manage staff. Even if you have to pay the freight of your L3 exam costs, in this area it more than pays for itself as most of the the local hills give deeply discounted and even free day passes if you show them your membership card.
 

jzmtl

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But to the point, higher levels of instruction certification, skiing is an athletic endeavor. Most folks don't have the time to put in enough hours on the hill both skiing and teaching to reach L3 or higher, and often even L2 (PSIA). There will never ever ever NEVER be high pass rates at higher levels.

Yep, it's more like high school students going for tennis class at YMCA after school, if they can do well then good, if not then oh well. I know someone who is working his level 3 and he pretty much ski 5 days a week from morning to when he has to start his night shift, not something everyone can commit to, especially with a family.
 

Mike King

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I don't think most of the public realizes how big of a task it is to ski/teach/do ma at the Level 3, let alone the Level 2 standard. Every person is different and comes to an athletic endeavor with different strengths, weaknesses, flaws, and conceptions. It all has to be worked through and is a process. The level 3 standard, in particular, is really tough and requires a lot of work to achieve.

One of our trainers is a long-time Examiner in both PSIA East and RM. He got his level 3 30 years ago. He also kept meticulous records of what it cost him -- $37,000. That's the cost not only of the direct fees for exams, clinics, coaching, etc., but also the lost wages while he was training.

So, while you can get a pay raise or have a resort pay the successful exam fees, there's still a huge investment the individual has in getting certified.

I really don't know how the folk who pursue ski instruction as a career find the time and resources to pass their Level 3.

Mike
 

markojp

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I've seen young full timers who've come to the instruction world with strong skill sets finish their L3 in 4 seasons. Now the cost of the skill sets they brought is another thing all together. ogsmile
 

Magi

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With a pass rate of 5 to 10 percent, are these "cocky instructors" advised that they needn't bother taking the exam, but take it despite the advice?

Those numbers are objectively wrong, at least for PSIA. The pass rate for the level 3 (in RM at least) is 29-35%. (Verified yesterday with a member of the head office).
 

markojp

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Those numbers are objectively wrong, at least for PSIA. The pass rate for the level 3 (in RM at least) is 29-35%. (Verified yesterday with a member of the head office).

consider the source.

That RM would have higher pass rates makes sense. Loads of destination resorts with a lot of full timers. Hours on the job + effort = success.
 

oldschoolskier

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The one thing that I have learned in sports, education, professional or any other activity is that there is experienced narrow mindedness or flexible greatness in instruction. The first is a specialist (at best), the second is great!
 
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François Pugh

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consider the source.

That RM would have higher pass rates makes sense. Loads of destination resorts with a lot of full timers. Hours on the job + effort = success.
In all fairness to @wutangclan, the stats were for Whistler.

MODERATORS: feel free to split this off to a "CSIA vs PSIA" thread.

I’m training for my CSIA L4 and guess what has been some of the most useful material to me that’s available online? The PSIA-RM tasks ... e.g. reading about the fundamentals skills needed for a successful Wedge Christie demo (no longer taught in Canada).

Having researched both CSIA and PSIA extensively, I would agree that it's fair to rank the base standards, from most difficult/rigorous to least, like so:
  • CSIA 4
    • PSIA 3
  • CSIA 3
    • PSIA 2
  • CSIA 2
    • PSIA 1
  • CSIA 1
As a CSIA L1 "examiner" myself, I'll frankly remark that the bar for L1 is very low. I see it just as a standardized recruitment, selection and orientation exercise, tied into the Canadian liability insurance regime. It serves its purpose but cannot be thought of as anything more than the entry point for rookie instructors. Furthermore, the ratio of L1-certified people who actually go on to work as instructors is quite low (~50%) ... there are lots of peeps who take it for kicks and bragging rights, calling themselves "instructors" yet they neither ski well nor ever teach. CSIA L2 used to be crazy easy too, but faced with criticisms similar to those leveled (heh) at the L1 standard, the CSIA has tightened it up a bit over the last few years. The jump to L3 and L4 is and always has been exponentially harder. The BC exam pass statistics for 2016/17 season were: L1: 1200+, L2: ~500, L3: 45, L4: 6!!! There were roughly the same number of L1, 2, 3, 4 passes in BC as the entire rest of Canada combined.

Now, just as there is a great deal of regional variation in the PSIA, so too there is in the CSIA. You can think of BC & Alberta as PSIA-RM and of Whistler as the new epicentre of the CSIA (it used to be Quebec). Whether justified or not, perceived or reality, CSIA West (BC/AB) looks down on CSIA East (ON/QC), especially for L3 and L4. I've heard stories of numerous Eastern L4s arriving in BC and getting less respect. There was one guy who kept failing the L4 exam in Whistler, flew to Quebec and passed it there, and got blackballed by everyone when he came back. Of course there are the greats from the East who command respect wherever they go, like JF Beaulieu, Sunny Verault, Luc Neron, Sebastien Michel, etc. But there's no denying the general undercurrent of regional tensions and perceived disparities.

The same dynamic exists within BC between the 900-lb gorrilla that is Whistler and all the other small/mid-sized resorts. Having seen this dynamic myself, I will testify that it's more objectively true than not. Someone who passed their L3 in Whistler is definitely a much stronger skier than someone who passed at Sun Peaks, Big White or Grouse. The exams were definitely much harder in Whistler, to the point that many Whistler instructors would travel to other BC resorts to pass the L3 under easier conditions. However in recent years, CSIA BC examiners started cluing in on this, and have made a good effort at evening up the standards by sending Whistler examiners to other BC resorts and vice versa. In the last few years the L3 pass rate outside of Whistler has gone significantly down. There have been several "unlucky" fellows in BC whose cohorts passed the L3 early on while they themselves were trapped failing the exam again and again after the standard was raised.

Relating it back to CSIA vs PSIA (and having spectated many exams in both systems), I would say that an L3 from Whistler is very close to a PSIA L3. They may not be familiar with PSIA exam tasks, but I guarantee you that the Whistler CSIA examiners are looking for all the same fundamental skills and competencies in a candidate's skiing, demonstrated in similar expert terrain. The pass rate at Whistler L3 exams is <10% (more like 5%), especially at the end of the season where 40+ candidates will contest it and only 2 or 3 pass (I cried in my beer at several of these).

It will be interesting to see what effect the Vail takeover has on Whistler and the CSIA. There've been many top level CSIA-examiners who were on the resort's payroll, but spending much of their time running training, adjudicating exams and directing strategy for the CSIA. Even before the takeover, one of the most prominent leaders in CSIA BC, "Doctor" (not actually a doctor) Ken Paynter, was effectively fired by the resort for doing too much CSIA work. No doubt that the resort gets a lot of indirect benefits from being the centre of the CSIA world, but the focus on revenue growth is bound to put pressure on WB Snow School to offload CSIA-related work.

One oddity, though, is that there is VERY little cross-pollination between CSIA and PSIA, except at the top level such as between the Interski demo teams and ski school / resort managers (especially those attending the "Model for Growth" conferences). The Canadian ski industry is largely staffed by the "Commonwealth" i.e. Canadians plus boatloads of Brits, Aussies and Kiwis who initially came over on working-holiday visas. It's exceptionally difficult (or at least not worth the effort) for Canadian ski instructors to work in the US and vice versa. This is quite the opposite from the racing scene where ACA and USS athletes rub shoulders with each other at NorAm and numerous regional races throughout the year. Too bad -- we have so much to learn from each other.

Even so a pass rate of 30% seems very low for an exam to verify that those taking have learned what you have taught them. If the purpose of the exam is to see if they have learned what you were supposed to teach them, then either the teaching needs adjustment, or more folk need to be told up front they are not ready, and effectively discouraged from taking the exam. Of course if it's merely a gate keeper to ensure that only the top 30 percent of the best prepared and best qualified instructors get the L3, then go ahead rate on a bell curve and call yourself the best of the best.
 

wutangclan

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Those numbers are objectively wrong, at least for PSIA. The pass rate for the level 3 (in RM at least) is 29-35%. (Verified yesterday with a member of the head office).

What are the approximate actual number of PSIA L3 passes per season, rather than the pass rate? Maybe that's a better measure, given that the pass rate is affected by how many poor souls prematurely attempt it.

In Canada we mint about 100-150 new L3s and 10-20 new L4s per winter. Yes, that's right, only about a dozen new L4s per season FOR ALL OF CANADA. It fluctuates a little: some year's (maybe this year) it's close to 20, other years it's closer to 5.

Of course if it's merely a gate keeper to ensure that only the top 30 percent of the best best prepared and qualified instructors get the L3, then go ahead rate on a bell curve and call yourself the best of the best.

Don't know about PSIA, but CSIA is most definitely not on a curve. The marking criteria are very specific and as objective as possible, which is why some exam sittings have high pass rates and others don't. Granted, the human subjectivity of the examiners can't be completely eliminated, but that is quite different from deliberately grading on a curve.

@François Pugh , someone mentioned that you're not in the system (PSIA/CSIA) ... is that correct? It certainly seems like you're not, because you demonstrate a complete lack of familiarity with the stated intentions of the CSIA on such matters as exam grading. Whether those intentions are dispassionately adhered to in real life is a completely different matter, but you don't even know what those intentions are. Besides, one of the most recurring debates within the CSIA is how to increase the number of L3s and L4s certified annually, at the risk of lowering standards. And, as a teaching organization, the CSIA most certainly keeps re-examining, redesigning and refining its member training methods and materials. The L2 and L3 courses have been dramatically restructured since 2015 to make them more accessible and relevant to participants, in the hopes of easing the obstacles to learning. No one could ever accuse them of not trying to improve.

So when you repeatedly insinuate that the organization is enforcing exclusivity for its own sake just so that those at the top can "call yourself the best of the best", it makes me think that you've got an ax to grind.
 

markojp

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In all fairness to @wutangclan

Even so a pass rate of 30% seems very low for an exam to verify that those taking have learned what you have taught them. If the purpose of the exam is to see if they have learned what you were supposed to teach them, then either the teaching needs adjustment, or more folk need to be told up front they are not ready, and effectively discouraged from taking the exam. Of course if it's merely a gate keeper to ensure that only the top 30 percent of the best prepared and best qualified instructors get the L3, then go ahead rate on a bell curve and call yourself the best of the best.

The question is, if you have no stake in this and don't participate, why do you care? Genuinely curious.
 

Nancy Hummel

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About those low pass rates.....
In a high school Algebra class, or an undergraduate class on Modern Literature, or a Macro-Economics class, or an Electricity and Magnetism class, if 75% of the students fail a test, is it OK for the teacher to blame the students? How about in a PE class? Or Touch-Typing (do they even teach this any more)? Or Music, or Drama class, or French II, high school Industrial Arts, Advanced Painting? In any of these, if 75% or more of the students fail a test, or the exam, or the semester, is it ever OK to blame the students?

I don't view PSIA exams like a class with a test at the end. I view PSIA exams more like the ACT or SAT where the test parameters are available and it is up to the student to study, prepare and do what is necessary to score well on the test.

I have done a fair amount of certification training both at Breckenridge and Aspen. There are many people who take it very seriously and others who have no clue about the exam requirements and format, all of which is available on the RM-PSIA website. If someone thinks they are a rock star skier and doesn't take the time to educate themselves on the format and exam content, do I blame the student? Yes.
 

LiquidFeet

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@Nancy Hummel
I agree with you. There are clueless ones who take the exams without any prep, thinking they are awesome skiers and knowing nothing about what the exam is looking for. Of course it's their own fault they fail. But there are others who do their due diligence but still fail, due to not having access to an excellent mentor who can coach them. (I'm speaking of PSIA here; dunno about CSIA).

The educational resources offered by the organization are not as strong as they should be. I continue to believe that the educational offerings from PSIA National can and should be improved by the leadership in response to the acknowledged low pass rates, instead of blaming the candidates for being arrogant slackers.

Why does PSIA National not produce more educational materials? I'm not sure. But I know PSIA expects candidates to find and work with a mentor if their ski school's training is not strong enough. I also know that there are not always mentors available, especially at smaller mountains where most instructors teach part-time. I know people who prepared with lots of effort and failed, not because of exaggerated self-confidence but because of fuzzy info from clinics and written materials provided by the educational arm of the institution, and no working relationship with a mentor to clarify that fuzziness. It's possible that the focus on big mountains out west blinds PSIA leadership to the minimal educational offerings by ski schools at smaller mountains which have not got even one examiner on staff.

The "Matrix" needs to be better. The written descriptions of test tasks need to be improved. Self-coaching guides need to be offered. The membership forum on the PSIA National site needs to be made functional so candidates can ask questions (about wedge christies, etc.) there instead of coming here.

It's the certification candidates that don't work full-time at huge mountains with multiple examiners on staff that need stronger educational offerings from PSIA National. I know the institution's budget is limited, but this educational organization can do better if they put their minds to it.
 
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Mike King

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I don't view PSIA exams like a class with a test at the end. I view PSIA exams more like the ACT or SAT where the test parameters are available and it is up to the student to study, prepare and do what is necessary to score well on the test.

I have done a fair amount of certification training both at Breckenridge and Aspen. There are many people who take it very seriously and others who have no clue about the exam requirements and format, all of which is available on the RM-PSIA website. If someone thinks they are a rock star skier and doesn't take the time to educate themselves on the format and exam content, do I blame the student? Yes.
I mostly agree with you Nancy, but I'd perhaps use a different test analogy, say the LSAT, MCAT, or GRE's. Not everyone who takes the exam is successful in being accepted to law, medical, or graduate school. Similarly, not every instructor has the skill and experience to be a full cert.

Perhaps even better would be taking the bar, a CPA exam, CFA exam, etc. You've received all the training and were required to prepare, but not everyone is admitted.

One of the issues is that candidates can sit for and partially pass the Level 3 exam. So, many folk go to get some portion passed, then focus on the part that they failed for the next exam.

Mike
 

wutangclan

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@LiquidFeet, as the one who first brought up "cocky instructors", let me clarify a couple of things, because that sentiment may be rubbing some of you the wrong way.

I stand by my assertion that instructor cockiness is a factor leading to some prematurely attempting the exams. Not a majority, certainly not all. But ours is a sport that attracts young, over-confident extroverts. Come on ... you know the type. Heck, there's several forum threads devoted to them!

For most other, more humble candidates, I already listed what I think are the significant factors (lack of time to train, lack of access to a mentor, lack of fitness, etc.) Note, however, that I do NOT agree that "lack of training materials" is a primary cause. The national/regional standards are pretty clear -- both CSIA and PSIA publish very detailed criteria for passing an exam. And there's no shortage of internet material on how to ski.

The problem is that you can have all the material in the world, but self-coaching just doesn't work for breaking through to the upper echelons of the sport. You MUST have competent mentors. You MUST surround yourself with motivated peers and training partners, pushing each other to improve. You MUST train frequently and regularly with them, rather than by yourself. Because it's one thing to know in your head from study materials that you must, say, balance on the outside ski ... but it's quite another to actually do it. Unless you are born with exceptional body awareness, you won't know what you're doing right or wrong and why. And even if you do video MA on yourself, you won't pick up on the subtle cues that indicate one problem or another. Finally, our perception of our own ability is useless in a vacuum ... plenty of us don't realize that we're the slow poke not really mastering a gnarly pitch until someone else with higher expertise shows up to put us in our place.

Bottom line is that, one can't blame the organization entirely for one's inability to perform, because training does not guarantee performance. I know in my head perfectly well what movements I should and shouldn't perform, but unless I'm having a really good day there are still habits that are incredibly difficult for me to change (especially asymmetry issues).
 
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MattFromCanada

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With regards to the low pass rate, from my observations being on courses and exams, @wutangclan touched on a lot of them.


The commoditization of ski exams in the CSIA system definitely contributes to the low pass rate. In a system that doesn't require experience hours to be signed off before attempting the exams, you end up with people who don't work in the industry getting certified for the fun of being certified, taking exams for the fun of doing them, knowing that they don't have a chance of passing. A few seasons ago I went up to watch my friend attempt the L3, I ended up chatting with a fellow who was a doctor from Australia, this was his 5th attempt at it, and he treated it as a holiday, coming over every April to take a ski exam, just for the fun of it.

And then you have the people who might display great teach ability, but have no teachability. They can hammer out the teaching portion of the exam, but are too stubborn, or too physically broken to be able to change what they're being told to change. I'm not sure about the PSIA system, but it's possible to partially pass the exam, either the teaching or the skiing part. Those numbers aren't included in the "pass" rates.

Finally, you have the people on work permits who need that L3 pin to be able to secure sponsorship visas for next season, those folks are going to be taking the exams no matter what, a Hail Mary pass if you will, even if they have only had a season of work under their belts, since the clock is running against them.


Of course, there's also the folks who are just too oblivious to realize they're a long way off the standard and keep going to the exams anyways, failing, then leaving without bothering to ask the examiners for feedback. I've met a few of those over the last few years...
 

Seldomski

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I'm not a ski instructor...

I assume the passage rate depends on the demographic for the student. I would guess there are a few categories of ski instructor based on my observations as a student. There is likely overlap here:
1) Ski bum/young kid filling a gap year - probably not thinking they will do this for more than a couple years
2) Part timer, either working a full time job or retired, treating skiing as a bit more than a hobby. Doing instruction primarily for the pass or for discounts.
3) Not actually an instructor - they take the test for fun or as a test. Probably good skier, but not actually a teacher/instructor.
4) Full time/professional. Ski instruction is viewed as a primary profession demanding full attention.

My guess is that 4) has a much higher passage rate as a group for the higher levels. This group I also think is in the minority.
 

François Pugh

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@wutangclan ,
I have no axe to grind, no dog in this fight. I have never been tempted to spend my ski days teaching never-evers to make gliding wedge turns down the magic carpet bunny hill. However, I have been a very passionate skier for about 50 years, and am keenly interested in all things related to skiing, including ski instruction. I am not a ski instructor, but have been a volunteer ski patroller for 6 years. The only test I care about is my on-snow certification with the CSP, and that is not a worry for me. People who ski with me, (including fellow patrollers, coaches and instructors at my home hill) describe me as a "good skier"; some people who only know me through the internet think I'm full of shite, and I couldn't care less what they think. I'm am most often working hard at perfecting my carved turns, but also spend time working on improving my mogul skiing. My views have been formed from talking with fellow skiers, instructors, patrollers, coaches and just plain recreational skiers, and from reading forums like this one.

It appears that some folk don't want to hear from anyone not inside the organization and would prefer I STFU. Imho, that is narrow minded.

From what I've read, and considering your input, which you have expressed so clearly, confidently and authoritatively that I have no doubt about it's truth, it appears that there are indeed two separate problems: low pass rates on exams, and diminishing numbers of fully qualified of L3 and L4 instructors. Some possible reasons for the low pass rates have been suggested above, and there doesn't seem to be much that can be done about those reasons. Another possible reason is that many take the exam as a diagnostic to assess where they are in their journey towards the goal. Perhaps holding (more) "diagnostic clinics" or "pre-exams" might be used as a means of satisfying that need, rather than have these folk influence the pass/fail statistics.

I have no doubt that attaining a L4 is a long road that requires a lot of work. It's one thing to learn how to ski the way you want to for your own benefit, and even that requires concerted hard effort; just skiing won't advance you - witness the number of folk who are no better skiers than they were 10 or 20 years ago. To be able to ski on demand to the standards and in the the way someone else wants you to ski is even harder. I think the biggest part of that problem (few instructors committed to taking the road to L4) on this continent is that ski instructors are not rewarded enough for their efforts. That is not the fault of the CSIA or PSIA, but more likely due to the monopoly the ski resorts have on instruction at their resorts, and their propensity to concentrate on short term profit goals. I don't know what, if anything the CSIA and PSIA could do to improve that situation, but it is worth thinking about.
 

markojp

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Fwiw, it's not about shutting anyone up. The tone of your statements rely on supposition and teeter on the edge of trolling. Whether you intend to or not, that's how your posts read. The idea that we're forced to ski the way 'they' want us to ski again is misguided and displays a large degree of ignorance about what, why, and how both PSIA and CSIA operate. Ask some questions. The answers from people who participate will help you better understand what both are about.

Fwiw, in the PNW, we're seening a makings of a nice generational change. In my observations, it seems there's an influx of younger, committed, and passionate instructors popping up the past couple seasons. It doesn't feel like things are diminishing at all, and while I haven't checked the actual stats, I don't find L2 and L3 instructors a dying breed.
 

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