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Practice

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Mike King

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one of my colleagues posted a link to this article on practice and I found it very interesting. I'm working toward level 3 certification and have been in process of rebuilding my skiing from the ground (feet?) up. It's easy to skip the hard work or to let the magnitude of the goal interfere with the process. Anyway, I really enjoyed this article.

Now back to Speiss turns...

http://www.businessinsider.com/my-11-year-old-son-auditioned-at-juilliard-2017-5
 

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As an adaptive examiner told me, practice does not make perfect, practice makes permanent, only perfect practice makes perfect. I like to add the following, all skiing is practice.

After that reading that article, I'm going to have to work at breaking things into smaller pieces to work on more stuff.
 

Uke

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To go along with the Practice makes Permanent, Perfect Practice makes Perfect is this idea that I picked up in a performance workshop (for music). "Don't practice until you can do it right, practice until you can't do it wrong."

uke
 

graham418

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practice does not make perfect, practice makes permanent, only perfect practice makes perfect.

Along these same lines, I read an article in a golf magazine which said that it takes 1000 repetitions for your muscles to learn and remember a movement, but It takes 10000 repetitions to UNlearn it.
Thats why it is so hard to break the bad habits. It is better to seek professional guidance and learn the proper techniques from the start.
 

Started at 53

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There are a couple of books about becoming a top level _______ and what it takes.

But both allude to the 10,000 hour rule of thumb to achieve top level skills (think top 5 in the world of sport or music)

The best of the books is called The Talent Code, I highly recommend it IF you want to improve, but especially if you have a youth that has lofty aspirations.
 

Rod9301

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I think the reason the book that advocates 10,000 hours is popular is because it implies that all you have to do is practice something for a long time and then you're an expert.

Which is not true. Experts are born, athletes are born. Sure, to get in the rarefied upper circles you also have to practice hard, but you never get there without talent.
 

jimtransition

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I think the reason the book that advocates 10,000 hours is popular is because it implies that all you have to do is practice something for a long time and then you're an expert.

Which is not true. Experts are born, athletes are born. Sure, to get in the rarefied upper circles you also have to practice hard, but you never get there without talent.

I think it's easier for people to conceptualise some kind of magical talent as an excuse for why they don't have success in a given field rather than accepting that so much of it is hard work. When I hear people talk about someone's talent, I feel like it diminishes the amount of work that athlete has put in. Certainly without certain physical attributes people won't be athletes, but beyond that so much is down to motivation, effort, and the people you are around.

I find that people who have had success in another sport tend to pick up skiing quickly, not because they have an inbuilt talent, but because they know how to learn, how to push themselves and how to practice. Failing and trying again is super important.

The type of practice is key, I have skied most days for the last decade (back to back seasons between the hemispheres) which must be about 10000 hours, but since most of it was somewhat unfocused, or just cruising whilst teaching, I am obviously not a world class athlete. Someone with similar physical attributes could have spent that time becoming a very solid athlete under the right conditions.
 

Started at 53

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I think the reason the book that advocates 10,000 hours is popular is because it implies that all you have to do is practice something for a long time and then you're an expert.

Which is not true. Experts are born, athletes are born. Sure, to get in the rarefied upper circles you also have to practice hard, but you never get there without talent.

I think you'd do well to read the book rather than make assumptions

Not meant to be snarky, so please don't take it that way
 

François Pugh

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It's a long way to the top, and it's not as easy as it looks (AC/DC reference). It takes skill. It takes practice. And it takes luck.

It takes luck that you don't get injured and your injuries interfere with your progress, luck that in that critical race, you didn't go through the rough stretch in the shade, luck that you found the right coach at the right time, etc. There's a lot of luck involved.

Some say luck is when preparation meets opportunity. Stay prepared; keep practicing.
 

markojp

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Really interesting article! I was thinking about this in relationship to what we choose as our 'range' of activities. I have friends who are pretty good a several activities both sports related and not, but while 'good', their focus is dispersed across so many things they never perform to their potential in any of them. This is absolutely fine so long as there's 100% acceptance of the outcome, but often we know people who aren't.

Skiing wise, there are the one's who are frustrated with not being able to pass their L3, yet they won't ski in bad weather, only sign up for minimal commitment teaching days, put off addressing gear issues, etc... and wonder why they can't pass. Another wants to be a trainer yet also signs up for minimum time teaching commitment. They do have time as they're on the hill and at events, free skiing, etc..,, but just aren't good at teaching. The thing that really makes your teaching better (and skiing with the right head while you're teaching) is teaching, and yup, if you don't enjoy it and do it a lot, you aren't likely to get good at it. Expectations don't align with what many are willing to put into the effort.

All this gets me back to the mantra an old friend said a number of years ago regarding 'getting really good' at something; " If you're bored, your boring." The article addressed the latter very clearly. Engagement is 90% of the battle. Talk to the people you admire the most in a particular endevour and chances are about 99.8% they're thinking about and doing what they are doing not much less than obsessively. ogsmile
 
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BornToSki683

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Practice makes perfect but only if you're practicing the right things. I would say 10,000 hours or whatever it is, of practice to master a particular skill. That's assuming that the skill you are mastering is effective in the big picture. You can practice flapping your arms all day long and truly master the art of flapping your arms with impeccable eleagant technique and yet you will never be able to fly.
 

Started at 53

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Practice makes perfect but only if you're practicing the right things. I would say 10,000 hours or whatever it is, of practice to master a particular skill. That's assuming that the skill you are mastering is effective in the big picture. You can practice flapping your arms all day long and truly master the art of flapping your arms with impeccable eleagant technique and yet you will never be able to fly.

Well, that theory is akin to saying go learn to make carving turns in bare feet. Let's assume the practice involves using the correct tools/instruments. I know it is a big leap, but humor me :roflmao:

The Talent Code is a pretty amazing book if you are interested in high level performance and how it is attained and attainable.

The book details hotbeds of learning, and details why there are lots of top performers coming from some odd locations.

Of course there needs to be good instruction or a good role model to copy, but in today's world of multi-media, it is much easier to imitate.
 

BornToSki683

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I'll add further that if you practice 10,000 hours with poor technique you may never get on track. You'll burn in the "wrong" movements and never get over it. You'll hit a glass ceiling. I think we see that all the time as instructors and friendly helpers. It was mentioned here that some people are "born with the talent". Well that may be in terms of raw athletic ability and capability, but technique involved in skiing is not really in our DNA, it's learned. Some people might stumble on the technique by accident, by trial and error; others simply will not ever find it that way. They can work on it for 10,000 hours or 100,000 and it won't matter if they get off track onto mastering poor technique. But technique can still be learned! It is not reserved only for those born with talent. Likewise those with born talent can just as easily skip the technique lesson and they will hit a glass ceiling. They will NEVER reach their full potential that way, even if they get to a a higher level through sheet athleticism then some of us mere mortals.

Hope the redundancy police don't complain again...
 

BornToSki683

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Well tru dat though that can still be a very luck of the draw kind of thing...what if you don't even hear about it or stumble on it until 20 years later after you have alread spent 10,000 hours doing things a different way?
 

agreen

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I often wonder if I've plateaued with my level due to lack of time on snow. I've been skiing between 12-17 days per season for the past 7 years and feel I've made huge gains up till this past season. I do take lessons and have a good grasp of what I need to do to get to the next level but it didn't happen after 17 days this year. My thought is I'm just not on snow for enough hours to ingrain the muscle memory. I would say I am around the level 8 range currently. Thoughts?
 

LiquidFeet

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@agreen, 17 days isn't a whole lot of skiing if you are at level 8. I feel your pain! I ski 60 days per year, and this last season it finally hit me that it wasn't enough time for me to improve at the rate I want to improve. Getting "better" just takes longer than I thought.

Some of that 60 days is spent teaching, but not all of it. When I'm not teaching, I'm deliberately working on building skills. I ski about 4 days per week, with some week-long trips scattered about. Two of those four days per week are free-skiing days, and the other two are teaching days. When teaching, I don't teach all day long. There's free-skiing time in between teaching sessions.

But I've decided that this 60-day schedule hasn't been giving me enough free-skiing time to increase my skills at a rate that I find satisfactory. At my level, whatever that is, I am finally aware that I need more concentrated time for "deliberate practice" than my usual schedule allows. It just takes longer to learn than I originally thought. So next season I've decided not to teach. I'll find out if 60-ish days of free-skiing nets more skill gain than in the past. I think it will. But it's not the sheer number of hours on snow that I hope will lead to personal improvement. It's other stuff.

Here are the factors that I have found impact my speed of learning new stuff. I'm not sure if they apply to you, agreen, or to others, though.

--Age may play into how long it takes to embed a new movement pattern that replaces an old dysfunctional one (I'm 67). Young people seem to embed new movement patterns faster than old ones. Oh well.... that's one factor I can't change.
--Knowing what to work on is always an issue; not knowing or misunderstanding what to work on can slow one down or result in dead-end investigations. So there's that omnipresent issue of what constitutes better skiing. It's clear people don't agree.
--The presence or lack of informative and inspiring coaching clearly plays a role in figuring out what to work on. It also figures into knowing whether one is "getting it" or not. Personal feedback from a coach is critical.
--Personal willingness to experiment and do trail-and-error plays a role in discovering what movement patterns work better. One must be willing to humiliate oneself, fall, and be seen doing stupid-looking stuff out there in public on the snow, in order to discover what works, and what doesn't.
--Willingness to push oneself to the limits of capability and work at that edge of competence, then back off, is essential. So fear of bodily damage can slow one's progress down. Same for fear of public humiliation. But then public shaming can happen, as can broken limbs and detached ligaments. What's a skier to do?
--The proclivity to be experimental and analytical can speed up the process of discovery. These can enable one to efficiently engage in trail-and-error investigations. Not liking to "think" while skiing can inhibit learning, IMO. Informed choices of what to try helps speed progress. There are those who believe otherwise. They are the ones who say "you're overthinking it.
--The more one knows about the factors that can be manipulated while doing the trial-and-error experimentation, the more efficient one can be in landing on something better. In other words, informed, flexible thinking helps.
--But I don't mean ... Oh look, squirrel!
--Long non-stop runs help. There's no substitute for having plenty of time to let the body adjust its balance while trying something new. It's awful to always be getting to the lift just as something begins to kick in.

With all this in mind, I don't think a season of 17 days of free-skiing would net much gain -- for me. YMMV.
 
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agreen

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Thanks @LiquidFeet for the great response. I agree with everything you said so well. I think for the non local vacation skier ie. 10-20 days per season will only take you so far and then a plateau develops. I've been lucky to have had some great instruction along the way, am pretty athletic, and 44 yrs old so I think these factors helped me get where I am at now. But, the competitor in me really wants to keep the progression going and it seems clear that I need to significantly increase my days on snow in the coming years to reach my goals. Thanks again!
 
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