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Colorado Powdr Has Purchased Eldora

Jeff N

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No no no, we want A-Basin to go it alone, Loveland-style, so the early and late season Epic pass hordes will stay away. ;)

I think the flipside would be that Loveland could likely stay open later if they had access to the RMSP passholder base. Loveland's snow retention is at least as good as A-Basin's.
 
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SBrown

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I think the flipside would be that Loveland could likely stay open later if they had access to the RMSP passholder base. Loveland's snow retention is at least as good as A-Basin's.

They do stay "open," renting out the place to race teams and camps. Probably make a decent bit of coin that way as opposed to staying open for passholders. That's just a guess, though; I don't know the books.
 

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They do stay "open," renting out the place to race teams and camps. Probably make a decent bit of coin that way as opposed to staying open for passholders. That's just a guess, though; I don't know the books.
Staying open late rarely brings more money in the coffers unless they do what Squaw did this year, offer a significantly discounted tickets for other pass holded, a $19.00 ligt ticket if you have a pass at another resort...but when Squaw did it this year, there was no competition. Difference here, is Arapahoe Basin, Vail passholders aren't going to pay Loveland when they can still ski A-Basin for free.
 
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Loveland does that when other places close, I think it's a $30 ticket or somewhere around there. They are only open a week or two (or sometimes three) after most areas, though. Then they take racers for a while.
 

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It seems the A-basin contract with Vail has two more years, at least according to what I posted on epic 5/2/14:
No A-basin on the RMSP for at least 4 years, at least that's what I overheard in the A-basin season pass office yesterday. Someone asked if they were on Epic pass next year and the employee responded with that tidbit I hadn't heard before.
 
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That would help out their parking-lot crowding issues....
 

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Loveland does that when other places close, I think it's a $30 ticket or somewhere around there. They are only open a week or two (or sometimes three) after most areas, though. Then they take racers for a while.

Exactly. Loveland had no problem filling its lots after other places closed - I was ranting about showing up to a full lot on Mondays (although we speculated many of these people weren't actually skiing).

Tickets were $35 to pass holders at other resorts. They could do that as long as they wanted IMO, especially because Loveland could keep more terrain open in the very late season and spread people out better than A-Basin can once Zuma closes.

I have an A-Basin pass, and I bought Loveland tickets a few times this season because A-Basin was overrun and it was worth the half day $53 price. I did that enough that I could have bought a pass, so I did get a season pass for next season.

There were plenty of people at the ticket window at A-Basin on Sunday, 3-4 deep at two windows around noon. Great time of year for an impulse day. Or five.

I am retracting my hope that Loveland combines with another pass. It is so worth $360 a season to have a resort that never has crowds as the closest to Denver. You save that money on weekday ski days just in convenience.
 
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Jeff N

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Staying open late rarely brings more money in the coffers unless they do what Squaw did this year, offer a significantly discounted tickets for other pass holded, a $19.00 ligt ticket if you have a pass at another resort...but when Squaw did it this year, there was no competition. Difference here, is Arapahoe Basin, Vail passholders aren't going to pay Loveland when they can still ski A-Basin for free.

But it apparently pays benefits for the entity selling the season pass, or at least that is what I infer from Vail's willingness to pay A-Basin for Epic Pass access. That deal seems like it works well for both parties- Vail gets to market the value of an October-June pass, and that is apparently valuable enough to pay another ski area for October, May, and June operation.

If a similar deal was worked out to add Loveland to the RMSP (either through purchase or contract), it seems credible that it could help move more season passes through access to an extended season- perhaps even enough to allow Loveland to operate until snow runs out.

I'm not saying whether that would be good or bad for Loveland, but clearly some people choose Epic over RMSP for the extended season, and clearly there are RMSP holders that buy either an A-Basin or Loveland pass to get more season in. I think many buy into A-Basin for Spring skiing because they know A-Basin will keep spinning lifts until no more snow. Every expectation is that an arrangement would move A LOT of season pass volume, especially if it extended the Loveland season.
 

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Given that this thread is about Eldora, What is the snow retention like there? I haven't skied there in forever so don't know. Any potential for Eldora to act as Powdr's extended season operator?
 

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Given that this thread is about Eldora, What is the snow retention like there? I haven't skied there in forever so don't know. Any potential for Eldora to act as Powdr's extended season operator?

Two things...

I buy an A-Basin pass because it is only $100 more than a Spring pass, so I totally agree an extended season moves a lot of passes. And RMSP + A-Basin = Epic Pass cost. That can more or less be done with Loveland replacing A-Basin purely on cost, but you lose May into June and you're gonna spend that money at A-Basin, and A-Basin and Loveland have enough overlap that A-Basin wins out purely on season length. Loveland could move season passes they can't sell today by taking it down to the snow being gone in June, especially given a lot of people hate it any time the Epic bro brah shows up en mass.

Eldora is 9,200' - 10,800' so its summit on the flank of the Front Range is near the base elevation of Loveland and A-Basin. Hard to see them going late regularly, although in Spring seasons with big Front Range storms they can get hammered. I was happening through Nederland last week and what was visible at Eldora still had some coverage, but this was also a pretty big spring season for the foothills. The net on Eldora is that it is basically a Boulder resort.
 

Jeff N

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Two things...

I buy an A-Basin pass because it is only $100 more than a Spring pass, so I totally agree an extended season moves a lot of passes. And RMSP + A-Basin = Epic Pass cost. That can more or less be done with Loveland replacing A-Basin purely on cost, but you lose May into June and you're gonna spend that money at A-Basin, and A-Basin and Loveland have enough overlap that A-Basin wins out purely on season length. Loveland could move season passes they can't sell today by taking it down to the snow being gone in June, especially given a lot of people hate it any time the Epic bro brah shows up en mass.

Eldora is 9,200' - 10,800' so its summit on the flank of the Front Range is near the base elevation of Loveland and A-Basin. Hard to see them going late regularly, although in Spring seasons with big Front Range storms they can get hammered. I was happening through Nederland last week and what was visible at Eldora still had some coverage, but this was also a pretty big spring season for the foothills. The net on Eldora is that it is basically a Boulder resort.

Yeah. Eldora's infamous winds can do a lot of snow damage when temps are above freezing too.

Agree on Loveland. Most of my theorizing about the ability for Loveland to move RMSP passes is the assumption that it would allow for at least an experiment in spinning lifts to the end of snow instead of closing 100% open...
 
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Yeah. Eldora's infamous winds can do a lot of snow damage when temps are above freezing too.

Agree on Loveland. Most of my theorizing about the ability for Loveland to move RMSP passes is the assumption that it would allow for at least an experiment in spinning lifts to the end of snow instead of closing 100% open...

Hasn't A-Basin always kept the season going as long as possible, though, going back to well before the Epic partnership? I don't think you need to be subsidized by a resort entity to make that model work, I just think there needs to be few enough places open to serve the dwindling Front Range ski audience from late May on. Clearly it works when there's only place open, but maybe two is too many, and that's why Loveland doesn't bother. A-Basin has been full but certainly not super crowded the last few weekends.

I obviously have no idea what the real numbers are, but I think it's possible A-Basin would make more money in the spring without the Epic partnership, because then everyone who wanted to ski late season would have to either buy an A-Basin pass or grab a window ticket.

I am really interested to see what A-Basin does in a few years when the partnership expires, anyways.
 

Jeff N

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A-Basin has always run an extended season, yes. They have established themselves in that position for longer than most of us have been alive. But, looking at the improvements they have been able to do in the Epic era, I have every reason to thing that the Epic arrangement has been quite lucrative for them. I would be surprised if it changes, unless the change is that they pit Powdr/Intrawest against Vail and Powdr outbids them. Late season crowds in the Epic era are far above what I remember as well. It seems it is much easier psychologically to keep skiing "for free" than it is to buy a lift ticket.

I don't think it is too much of a stretch to assume that Loveland closes because of economics reasons, chief being that they don't have a large population of passholders to entice to keep skiing. I think they have made the sensible, strategic choice to NOT compete with A-Basin, out of fear that a very real outcome could be that both resorts lose money via undercutting Spring offers and then splitting skier visits without growing the pot of Spring skiers.

That said, Powdr/Intrawest would have a very different motive than Loveland that could change the dynamic. Loveland operating to June would be a value proposition similar to Vail and A-Basin, and could move more passes, even if people never ski past April. The large passholder base could also grow the pot of late season skiers, making both resorts viable. But lots of ifs.
 

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I think they have made the sensible, strategic choice to NOT compete with A-Basin, out of fear that a very real outcome could be that both resorts lose money via undercutting Spring offers and then splitting skier visits without growing the pot of Spring skiers.

I was going to say this, but then you said it first. I would assume that the number of people interested in late spring / early summer is fairly fixed - so any other resorts staying open late would just hurt everyone.
 

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It's worth noting Mary Jane stayed open late this year, closing the same weekend as Loveland. If Loveland was on the RMSP, they could just keep Loveland open rather than extend WP/MJ as they've done in recent good snow years.

I agree w/@nay that Loveland/Copper would be a fantastic combo. I like skiing A-basin better and don't mind driving a few more minutes over the pass, but Loveland is great because I know I can get home on time and not have to worry about a pass closure... and no Epic Pass sh*t show that seems to be increasing in frequency.

Eldora really is a great option if you live in Boulder County. I skied Eldora a lot more when I lived closer. From Boulder, it's a half hour to get to I-70 just to start heading up the hill to the I-70 ski areas. In that time, you can almost be at Eldora.
 

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(some posts came in while I was typing this... :) )

One thing we've seen this year is some extra extensions such as MJ going until the 7th. Aspen was open last weekend. I think competition is high enough that resorts need to be thinking about their incentives and I get the sense that more are willing to do so, with the caveat of very limited terrain and presumably therefore low staff and other costs for keeping open that terrain.

A-Basin did deploy patrol to monitor slow zones last Sunday - there were that many people on the mountain - as well as spinning up Norway to disperse the crowds some. Both tactics were effective, but they are at, and really over, capacity until the bitter end.

Loveland is interesting because it has a very low capacity from a parking perspective to begin with - that resort just doesn't operate on high volume at any point. So when they have a decent amount of terrain open, which is reasonable given chairs 1, 4, 8, and Ptarmigan all have low risk terrain that has good end of season skiing value (long runs, good grooming potential for the warm stuff where groomers are finally better almost all of the time), and don't require exceptional access to maintain (like having to climb a cat back out of a steep bowl pitch), then I think that lot would be as full in May and June as it is in January. Or more so.

Loveland's ski team play also doesn't have any impact - they just take out the side of the wide acreage under Ptarmigan for racing and there would be virtually nothing lost to the public. And Loveland isn't a destination resort, it's a bunch of people with I Ski [heart]Land stickers.

A-Basin probably nailed it by taking a small fee for each skier day on the Epic Pass. Loveland could conceptually do the same, but they literally have nowhere to overflow the traffic whereas A-Basin already has a lot more parking and is also linked to Keystone and can shuttle people from Keystone parking lots. Loveland would have to shuttle people from like Morrison.

It may forever be a big place with few skiers, especially since it doesn't offer huge terrain diversity...that being something that also probably keeps plenty of people from biting on a pass (you buy a 4 pack and go 4 times). A-Basin on the other hand has ridiculous terrain for being under 1K acres and that terrain disperses skiers very well, although paradoxically it's that very feature that limits A-Basin so much in the last month of so of operation.
 
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I keep thinking about how every year we see more and more people at the end of the season, and you know, the Front Range population has grown a lot in the past few years. Some of these newbies probably decided skiing in May (and June) was really cool, and even a very tiny percentage of the overall growth would be enough to overflow the lots. I really do notice more and more late-season skiers, so YES, all these places that reopen and stay open longer, do it, disperse the skiers!
 
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^^^A-Basin's largest day ever was last year at like 5,500 skiers. You add 50 people a year from region of over 3.5M and in 10 years that's 500 new people who want to ski until the end. The idea that A-Basin can somehow handle all of this growth forever is already past the reality of the actual experience.
 

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Eldora really is a great option if you live in Boulder County. I skied Eldora a lot more when I lived closer. From Boulder, it's a half hour to get to I-70 just to start heading up the hill to the I-70 ski areas. In that time, you can almost be at Eldora.

Funny - I reached the opposite conclusion in the 14/15 season, admittedly because I went on massive Front Range powder days. Between the drive up the canyon and the stop and go parking and then the very real risk of the parking lot being completely full with zero overflow parking, I figured it would only take me an extra half hour to drive up to A Basin.
 

Jeff N

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This is definite thread drift, but I wonder if we will see more extended seasons as resorts attempt to become 4 season attractions.Go skiing, go biking on the south facing terrain, hit up the alpine slide, climbing wall, zipline, etc. Skiing gets you there to have the chance at converting you to take more summer trips up to the resort.
 

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