Please school me on junior race waxing

[robertc3]

I have two kids who race with our local club. My daughter is getting to the ability level where race specific waxing may be beneficial. Certainly not as beneficial as better technique or a better line, but better than just throwing some cheap wax on and letting her ski it in. My question is what is a reasonably effective and affordable race preparation for a U16? I won't be buying any flouro overlays or anything crazy, but I am willing to make a reasonable investment and work with her to learn to apply it and finish it in the most effective way possible.

She does not have trainer skis, so her race skis will be what she inspects on unless she inspects for one event on skis for a different event which she can do. Sometimes this is not ideal as she can't warm-up for SL on GS skis as effectively as on her SL skis. I don't see waxing between runs as reasonable unless there is a really easy on the hill method. How do most junior racers, or parents of junior racers, prep skis for the various disciplines? If we wax, scrape, and brush thoroughly before run one will there be enough wax left for run two? How much changes between waxing for a SL vs. a GS vs. a SG?

My son is a U12 and with the exception of an upcoming SG at the state U12 champs waxing for him is mostly Dumbo's magic feather. At his age it is all about the pilot.

We do a good job of keeping their edges sharp and the bases in good shape, it is just the waxing part that has me a bit uncertain. Any words of wisdom are appreciated.

 

[BGreen]

Where are you and where are they racing? That makes a big difference. Are you looking to wax for specific snow conditions or are you looking for recommendations on a generic/universal wax? For example, I would consider Swix LF6 to be a universal wax for my athletes as it will be fast enough in the vast majority of their races. Similarly, you could probably get away with Holmenkol Betamix or Toko Red/black as a generic wax.

You need to learn how wax works, as some basic knowledge will allow you to answer a lot of your own questions. In general terms, a harder wax is more durable than a softer wax. It is better to wax too cold than too warm. A harder/colder wax will give better acceleration, and softer wax will give better top speed. In aggressive snow (new or coarse) you need a harder wax. Anti stats are important, but can be slower in fresh or wet snow. Snow warms slower than air and cools very quickly. You will hear snow humidity as dry, normal, or wet. In general terms, dry snow can’t make a snowball (hydrocarbon wax is fine), normal snow can make a snowball (low fluoro), wet snow will make a snowball and water will drip down your arm (high fluoro).

So what does all that mean? Wax is not that important in slalom, but go a little harder to help with getting back up to speed after a mistake. Also harder will help with durability for the second run. In SG you only have to worry about one run and you want to wax for the longest flats. GS falls in between.

Buy a decent wax iron. Swix T77 is my current favorite budget iron. If you want to go up from there, Swix has a new low end digital that looks very nice. Buy brushes that match the hardness of your wax. The Swix steel brush is really nice on harder waxes. A roto brush will save a lot of time. A good liquid wax can be used to refresh a ski for a second run, or a rerun. Sharpen your scraper after every ski. If you are cheap, something 90 degrees and a drywall sanding screen gets the job done. If you have money to spend, electric scraper sharpeners run $275-$500. They are a stupid waste of money and the greatest things ever.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with using slalom skis to inspect and warmup for a GS unless there is a dedicated freeski area that you can ski at speed. Otherwise warmup on slaloms focusing on precision of movement.

I’m against overlays of any kind until the skier can ski a clean run. If she is speed checking before a jump, no point in super expensive wax. When she is skiing clean, wax appropriately for the conditions, but stay away from overlays until she is contesting places. If you are using fast wax in races, it needs to be used at least some in training. It feels different. There are physiological reasons why really fast wax can make younger skiers (U12 and under) ski slower.

As for basics of how to wax a ski, there are good videos on YouTube from Swix, Toko (Wili Wiltz), Artech (George Merrill), Starthaus (@otto) and Holmenkol on the subject. Don’t be stingy with wax, use the proper iron temp, three passes with the iron is sufficient (heat is bad for skis), allow the ski to fully cool for warmer waxes (heat twice for swix 4 and 5), and make sure to scrape and brush fully. Wax after every training session. Wax in the base is like oil in your engine. Betamix makes a very good all purpose training wax, as does Toko red. Swix has a 900g pack that gives you two bars of CH5, one CH6, CH7, CH8. If you are going to use Swix, it is a very economical way to go.

 

[razie]

Use an all temp LF wax like Toko pink shop wax for training and most racing in decent weather. The point is to keep the glide consistent.

Nanox works well too, but it's hard.

Use special moly hard wax for cold new snow, especially dry new snow. Had some success with racewax.com's harder race mix.

Base grind the skis every season and whenever the structure is compromised or the base is burned.

Pay more attention to the speed skis: they glide on the base more.

Brush well.

Ski fast.

 

[robertc3]

Where are you and where are they racing? That makes a big difference.

Thank you very much BGreen. We ski at Stevens Pass in Washington state and the majority of the races are in the Cascades of Washington and Oregon. Maritime snowpack with nearly all natural snow and temps often right around freezing. It is pretty rare for the races to be in temps below the mid 20s.

I am decently knowledgeable about the mechanics of a hot wax for recreational skiing. It is really about what wax to use and then how to finish the job for the best performance on race day. It looks like the Swix CH waxes I have are a good place to start. I don't own anything colder than CH7 since we just don't get much colder than that, but I can get some 6 and 5. Having the knowledge of the purposes of fluoro wax

You will hear snow humidity as dry, normal, or wet. In general terms, dry snow can’t make a snowball (hydrocarbon wax is fine), normal snow can make a snowball (low fluoro), wet snow will make a snowball and water will drip down your arm (high fluoro).

is a big help. I was thinking that the higher fluoro was just faster, not moisture condition specific. I knew to err on the cold side, but was not thinking about that as a durability benefit as well.

We don't wax after every training session, but we can step up the frequency. We already wax pretty regularly, so it won't be that much extra work for us. We will keep with the Swix CH since that is what we have for an everyday wax. It isn't expensive and we have experience with it. We use a Swix iron that looks similar to the T77.

Brushing is probably the biggest thing I need to get figured out. How much is enough to be fast, but not too much to have some wax left for run two. Most the SGs here are two races on the same day, so durability is still an issue. Sometimes they reset, others they just redress and run it again. Maybe some liquid wax is the trick for that. I will have to look into it.

Our typical weather is temps in the high 20s to mid 30s. This weekend is typical with Friday high 30/low 23, Saturday high 28/low 16 Saturday's low is actually colder than we typically see as cold air could bring snow to sea level on Sunday when highs are forecast to be 18 which is very cold for us. If we wax with Toko Red or Swix CH6 is that too cold for air temps at 28-32?

 

[razie]

Brushing is probably the biggest thing I need to get figured out. How much is enough to be fast, but not too much to have some wax left for run two.

If you leave "enough for run two", then you didn't brush well enough. Meaning that the structure is clogged with wax and thus not functioning - think of it that way.

Not having a functioning structure can lead to suction and poor water drainage, especially in wet conditions - High Fluoros will help, but not as much.

I would almost go as far as to say that having a good clean structure is more important than the wax...

 

[BGreen]

Dig around, but there is probably good information here: http://cmacskiracing.com/Tuning

If you know and like Swix, CH7 is probably a good basic wax, maybe LF7 or HF7 for races. I like Toko DLC (NF or LF) as a base layer. @ScotsSkier do you want to add any thoughts.

On the “learn to use wax” side, learn what being in a maritime environment means. I don’t know enough to speak intelligently on the subject. Depending on how close you are to the coast, wind can pack significant moisture into the the snow, but depending on the direction it could also suck moisture out. Also, if wind is packing in moisture, and moisture comes from ocean, you may need some sort of anti static/base layer, or wax a bit cold to handle the aggressive nature of salt. Dominator makes several, Toko DLC (NF, LF, HF), Swix Moly-Fluor. @razzie suggested tungsten. Salt is very aggressive on bases, and in my experience a base layer helps a lot.

If you use Toko in the temps you ask about, go red/yellow or red/black. Yellow/black is a god combination for warmer days with somewhat aggressive snow. I will often use a harder wax to handle the snow crystal shape, and a fluoro to handle the moisture.

 

[BGreen]

Dig around, but there is probably good information here: http://cmacskiracing.com/Tuning

If you know and like Swix, CH7 is probably a good basic wax, maybe LF7 or HF7 for races. I like Toko DLC (NF or LF) as a base layer. @ScotsSkier do you want to add any thoughts.

On the “learn to use wax” side, learn what being in a maritime environment means. I don’t know enough to speak intelligently on the subject. Depending on how close you are to the coast, wind can pack significant moisture into the the snow, but depending on the direction it could also suck moisture out. Also, if wind is packing in moisture, and moisture comes from ocean, you may need some sort of anti static/base layer, or wax a bit cold to handle the aggressive nature of salt. Dominator makes several, Toko DLC (NF, LF, HF), Swix Moly-Fluor. @razzie suggested tungsten. Salt is very aggressive on bases, and in my experience a base layer helps a lot.

If you use Toko in the temps you ask about, go red/yellow or red/black. Yellow/black is a god combination for warmer days with somewhat aggressive snow. I will often use a harder wax to handle the snow crystal shape, and a fluoro to handle the moisture.

I would almost go as far as to say that having a good clean structure is more important than the wax...

Actually that has been proven to be correct.

 

[oldschoolskier]

I am a Hertel fan, FC739. One of those waxed that seem to perform in all temp conditions.

Back up old school. Bees wax rub in, if need on any condition below a couple of degrees below freezing, soap (cheap hotel) rub in for anything at or above freezing (good for about first 30-40sec).

I carry both in my pocket for regular skiing. And I’ve used soap on a NASTAR race, 3rd fastest time of the day (which included instructors and coaches) in warm conditions.

 

[robertc3]

I would almost go as far as to say that having a good clean structure is more important than the wax...

Actually that has been proven to be correct.

Thank you for this. I will get some additional brushes and make better use of them.

 

[robertc3]

Dig around, but there is probably good information here: http://cmacskiracing.com/Tuning

If you know and like Swix, CH7 is probably a good basic wax, maybe LF7 or HF7 for races. I like Toko DLC (NF or LF) as a base layer. @ScotsSkier do you want to add any thoughts.

On the “learn to use wax” side, learn what being in a maritime environment means. I don’t know enough to speak intelligently on the subject. Depending on how close you are to the coast, wind can pack significant moisture into the the snow, but depending on the direction it could also suck moisture out. Also, if wind is packing in moisture, and moisture comes from ocean, you may need some sort of anti static/base layer, or wax a bit cold to handle the aggressive nature of salt. Dominator makes several, Toko DLC (NF, LF, HF), Swix Moly-Fluor. @razzie suggested tungsten. Salt is very aggressive on bases, and in my experience a base layer helps a lot.

If you use Toko in the temps you ask about, go red/yellow or red/black. Yellow/black is a god combination for warmer days with somewhat aggressive snow. I will often use a harder wax to handle the snow crystal shape, and a fluoro to handle the moisture.

Thanks for the tip on the CMAC blog. I had not seen that before. He is touting Swix F4 universal as a good training wax. I will check in with the coaches and confirm they like and get some. I will also ask about the LF and HF lines and see if there is something to be gained there.

We don't get any significant salt in the moisture we just get wet heavy snow and occasional rain. The term maritime snowpack comes from Avy circles. It just means that we get abundant heavy snow, very few persistent weak layers and snow that general stabilizes quickly. We do often ski in wet snow that falls right at the freezing point. We call is Cascade Concrete.

 

[James]

Dominator Zoom is a good all temp wax. They also make it with flouros. One can then have a cold wax and a warm. So 3 total. Or more if you want flouros. Using a base prep wax for cleaning and before the glide layer helps. You don't have to repeat it, but if you switch to cold Swix 4 ir equivalent I would use a cold base prep before.

What's important is to keep waxing and skiing. Or waxing and brushing.

 

[Polo]

Swix MB77 is a great training wax for out west. It has a fairly wide temp range as well as it has additives that work well in a wide range of types of snow and pollutants. Also, it has a little fluor in it which helps condition the base for if and when you put some kind of fluor overlay on for race days. Remember, fluors stick to fluros and without some amount of fluro on the base for your overlay to stick to, it'll come off about as fast as you put it on and will end up just being a waste of your time and money.

In all honesty, if you aren't using something with fluor in it as a base wax, before you put your overlay on, you may as well save you money because it's not really doing you a lot of good and to go even a step further, you shouldn't even use the same brushes to brush out your overlay as you do for you weekly wax.

 

[razie]

I am a Hertel fan, FC739. One of those waxed that seem to perform in all temp conditions.

Same here - was exclusively on that for two seasons I think, but it's not as cheap and I use quite a lot through a season... and I had to use the respirator. The SuperHotSauce doesn't last as long, but otherwise they're nice waxes.

Also, they kind'a stop working at -15C and under... but they are definitely not a bad choice!

 

[noah]

Great thread! I'm in the same boat, more or less, as the original poster @robertc3.

I'm trying to choose a wax brand for my second year U14. I also have an up and coming u12 as well as a u10. I know everyone has their favorite, but I'm wondering specifically about the benefits of choosing a system like Swix that has many more temperature-specific waxes, plus at least 4 types of waxes within each temperature range VS going with a brand like Toko or Holmenkol that seem to have simpler systems. The Toko system seems less complex (and cheaper) than Swix and Holmenkol seems even simpler and even cheaper. Holmenkol, for example, only has 3 temperature ranges and 2 types of waxes in each range - hydrocarbon and high fluro. Compare that to Swix with 6 temperature ranges and 4 types of wax in each range (CH, LF, HF, and HFBW).

At the junior race level, is there a benefit to a more expensive system like Swix or would I be better off with a simpler system?

 

[L&AirC]

Great thread! I'm in the same boat, more or less, as the original poster @robertc3.

I'm trying to choose a wax brand for my second year U14. I also have an up and coming u12 as well as a u10. I know everyone has their favorite, but I'm wondering specifically about the benefits of choosing a system like Swix that has many more temperature-specific waxes, plus at least 4 types of waxes within each temperature range VS going with a brand like Toko or Holmenkol that seem to have simpler systems. The Toko system seems less complex (and cheaper) than Swix and Holmenkol seems even simpler and even cheaper. Holmenkol, for example, only has 3 temperature ranges and 2 types of waxes in each range - hydrocarbon and high fluro. Compare that to Swix with 6 temperature ranges and 4 types of wax in each range (CH, LF, HF, and HFBW).

At the junior race level, is there a benefit to a more expensive system like Swix or would I be better off with a simpler system?

First I need my disclosures. I don't have kids in a race program but I do coach U10s. For that age group, wax is an unimportant as a race suit. As stated a clean base with sharp edges are way more important. Especially here in the east. 2 weeks ago we had a slalom race that was 100% ice after the first few racers. The athletes with sharp edges did the best. The athletes with the higher skill set, that have parents that don't know how to tune, faltered and/or crashed because they couldn't hold an edge.

As they proceed to U12 and U14, assuming the technique and ability is there to support it, wax does comes in to play. I've often joked about my own racing that if my skis wax was faster, I would just start skidding sooner. Though I say this tongue in cheek, there is some truth to this in preparing skis for athletes. They have to be able to handle the speed and be prepared for it, or they'll end up dumping the speed by being late and/or skidding.

Here are some things to consider:

Depending on where you are racing, the environmental conditions can vary widely through the day and may not pan out as forecasted. Spending a bunch of time and money on getting the wax exact can be fun, but there are better ways to spend time and money with regards to performance.

Race day is not the time to spring something new on them. Train as you race; always sharp and always clean bases. This will help them trust their gear and not be afraid to push it. It is more important for them to trust their edges, especially if you ski on icy courses.

If you're going to use special waxes for races only, make sure they get to try it out in training so they know what to expect.

When it comes to choosing a wax, I prefer Dominator. Simple to use. Easier than many other systems and the offer race discounts if you buy direct as long as you are registered with USSA. You can get the contact information from their site or send me a message and I'll send you the form.

Ask their coaches. They probably know exactly what they need whether it be faster wax or better technique or even better equipment. Keep in mind "better" is better for the athlete. I know an athlete that was moved to shorter Jr. skis that are undersized because the skis matched the skill set. If the skill set was there, the skis would be longer adult skis as that is what the athlete's size would dictate. This move improved the skiing and confidence.

Also, the coaches might have a preference in waxes and can help with explaining which to use.

At this age its probably also time to start bringing the athletes into the process. Maybe they aren't ready for sharp tools, but should be able to scrape and brush.

Have fun,

Ken

 

[noah]

Thanks for the reply! I totally agree that the younger kids should focus on technique. When the race spread is 10-20 seconds, wax is certainly not the deciding factor.

For my u14, races are now being decided by tenths and hundredths of a second, so wax is starting to matter more.

I guess my real question is if temperature specific waxes are really that much better than wide-range waxes (holmekol or toko) or all-temp waxes like dominator.

It would be much easier to not have to figure out what temp wax to use for any given day.

First I need my disclosures. I don't have kids in a race program but I do coach U10s. For that age group, wax is an unimportant as a race suit. As stated a clean base with sharp edges are way more important. Especially here in the east. 2 weeks ago we had a slalom race that was 100% ice after the first few racers. The athletes with sharp edges did the best. The athletes with the higher skill set, that have parents that don't know how to tune, faltered and/or crashed because they couldn't hold an edge.

As they proceed to U12 and U14, assuming the technique and ability is there to support it, wax does comes in to play. I've often joked about my own racing that if my skis wax was faster, I would just start skidding sooner. Though I say this tongue in cheek, there is some truth to this in preparing skis for athletes. They have to be able to handle the speed and be prepared for it, or they'll end up dumping the speed by being late and/or skidding.

Here are some things to consider:

Depending on where you are racing, the environmental conditions can vary widely through the day and may not pan out as forecasted. Spending a bunch of time and money on getting the wax exact can be fun, but there are better ways to spend time and money with regards to performance.

Race day is not the time to spring something new on them. Train as you race; always sharp and always clean bases. This will help them trust their gear and not be afraid to push it. It is more important for them to trust their edges, especially if you ski on icy courses.

If you're going to use special waxes for races only, make sure they get to try it out in training so they know what to expect.

When it comes to choosing a wax, I prefer Dominator. Simple to use. Easier than many other systems and the offer race discounts if you buy direct as long as you are registered with USSA. You can get the contact information from their site or send me a message and I'll send you the form.

Ask their coaches. They probably know exactly what they need whether it be faster wax or better technique or even better equipment. Keep in mind "better" is better for the athlete. I know an athlete that was moved to shorter Jr. skis that are undersized because the skis matched the skill set. If the skill set was there, the skis would be longer adult skis as that is what the athlete's size would dictate. This move improved the skiing and confidence.

Also, the coaches might have a preference in waxes and can help with explaining which to use.

At this age its probably also time to start bringing the athletes into the process. Maybe they aren't ready for sharp tools, but should be able to scrape and brush.

Have fun,

Ken

habks for

 

[Magi]

I've often joked about my own racing that if my skis wax was faster, I would just start skidding sooner. Though I say this tongue in cheek, there is some truth to this in preparing skis for athletes. They have to be able to handle the speed and be prepared for it, or they'll end up dumping the speed by being late and/or skidding.

I have a friend who is a professional Coach at the FIS level - and this topic came up a few days back when we were talking ski tuning and equipment access.

If your racer isn't *ready* to go faster, waxing ("juicing") the skis to go faster is only going to help him/her build bad habits. Make sure you're actually glide limited (regardless of how close the race times are) before you start worrying about waxing.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

I wish there was a way to test skis for wax. You could just issue all the kids a couple blocks of Holmenkol Beta Red and be done with it.

 

[L&AirC]

I have a friend who is a professional Coach at the FIS level - and this topic came up a few days back when we were talking ski tuning and equipment access.

If your racer isn't *ready* to go faster, waxing ("juicing") the skis to go faster is only going to help him/her build bad habits. Make sure you're actually glide limited (regardless of how close the race times are) before you start worrying about waxing.

I always remember a Top Gear episode that Jackie Stewart was on coaching one of the cast. His words that stuck with me are "Don't step on the gas until you don't have to step on the brakes." or at least words close to that. Like speeding up on a red light.

 

[BGreen]

I guess my real question is if temperature specific waxes are really that much better than wide-range waxes (holmekol or toko) or all-temp waxes like dominator.

Wax needs to match the snow. Swix is giving you pre-mixed wax. Toko, Holmenkol and Dominator 4x4 are giving you basic waxes and letting you mix them to get what you need. Dominator Zoom is a 10-32f wax, I don’t care what anyone says. New snow/old snow zoom is skewed in hardness and contains the relevant anti-stat (SRB or graphite), so you don’t have to think. We used to mix 1/3 HX77 with 2/3 zoom or zoom graphite. I think it performs similarly to Betamix.