Please school me about buckling!

[EricG]

Pat - did you feel the instep pressure the first day on the new liners? I find with my BD liners I need to make sure my tongue is in the exact spot it was during foaming, otherwise I get a pressure point on my instep. I have lines drawn on my liner and tongue to make sure it’s in the right spot when I buckle up. Now that I’ve got 25+ days in my BD’s I actually found myself using a slightly thicker sock. Oh and I dont use the laces anyone, I removed them and i think the flex feels smoother.

 

[James]

Have you tried actually using the laces, putting the liner on, then getting in? This takes some practice. Silicone spray inside the shell helps. Warming is even better.

But, sounds like you need to relieve the tongue or the shell in that instep area. That zone can drive you nuts when it hurts.

 

[Noodler]

@Pat AKA mustski - Would you be able to post a pic of the tongue of your liners? I'm assuming it's this liner:

I'm interested in what the instep area (and down toward your toes) looks like on a BootDoc liner. I found this image on their site:

Does the instep of your liner look like this? ^^^

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

Here you go @Noodler. You can see the black mark on the tongue from the shell pressure. That’s why I worried that I need to buckle the instep and toe more to keep the foot from rising up. I did just discover that the velro attaching the tongue to the liner was out of position (top photo). I hadn’t noticed that before.

Like I said before, I have an excellent bootfitter and plan to go back in April (earliest possible opportunity to travel to Reno) but I just want to eliminate user error.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Pat AKA mustski , impressive looking liner you've got there.

Have you explored shortening the boot board below your foot, to bring the instep of your foot down?
If this involves grinding that bootboard down, the bootfitter would have to decide whether to grind it all the way to the heel or not.

If the heel is lowered, that's going to affect the ankle bones fitting into their respective pockets, and how the boot tongue interacts with that space at the bend in the ankle where the top of the foot meets the shin. Those two issues can be dealt with after the boot board is ground shorter, but they take time. My bootfitter had to do that.

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

@Pat AKA mustski , impressive looking liner you've got there.

Have you explored shortening the boot board below your foot, to bring the instep of your foot down?
If this involves grinding that bootboard down, the bootfitter would have to decide whether to grind it all the way to the heel or not.

If the heel is lowered, that's going to affect the ankle bones fitting into their respective pockets, and how the boot tongue interacts with that space at the bend in the ankle where the top of the foot meets the shin. Those two issues can be dealt with after the boot board is ground shorter, but they take time. My bootfitter had to do that.

I NEED a heel lift on my left foot because the bone interferes with dorsiflexion. So I have some lift in both boots. He placed them under the boot board and and then did something to make sure that ramp angle was ok. I'm not clear on what he did exactly to make that work. After all that, he injected the foam into the liners to make sure that everything worked together well. I am sure that he will figure it out ok; he's really good. I'm just concerned that because I have a lifetime of cranking down the left foot buckles that I am still causing some issues myself. I put the tongue back in correctly and fixed that velcro connect. Who knows? Maybe that was the whole problem. The tongue was not in the correct position. I won't go back out there on the holiday weekend - maybe Monday. I will keep everything (except the power strap) really loose for a few runs before tightening up and see what happens.

 

[James]

I did just discover that the velro attaching the tongue to the liner was out of position (top photo). I hadn’t noticed that before.

How do you mean out of position? You adjust that to your foot/leg. Loosen it, push it all the way back to the shin, then attach the velcro. The purpose of the velcro is really to keep the tongue from falling out when you take the liner out. Racers in general take them out and hook them on the outside of their bag or put them inside the bag. If the tongue is loose, it's easy to lose. Done that.

Looks like some more hacking of the liner could solve the problem. This is not an uncommon issue.

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

@James Thanks. See, this is why I need schooling!

 

[EricG]

@Pat AKA mustski - Is the inside edge of the liner where it rubs on the tongue perfectly smooth? I noticed on the edge of my BD liner there was some excess material in a few spots (we trimmed it off), I am wondering if it is folding over and adding pressure in that areas on your instep?

 

[James]

@James Thanks. See, this is why I need schooling!

When the Velcro gets long over the sock, it can get prickly and annoy one's foot. It's the sharp plastic part of the Velcro that faces the foot. Very annoying if you feel it. I tried to sand those off on one liner, went a little too far, and boom no more Velcro strap. On my other ones I haven't had that issue.

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

@Pat AKA mustski - Is the inside edge of the liner where it rubs on the tongue perfectly smooth? I noticed on the edge of my BD liner there was some excess material in a few spots (we trimmed it off), I am wondering if it is folding over and adding pressure in that areas on your instep?

The inside edge of the liner is smooth but it feels like there is some excess on the edge of the tongue itself which could be folding over and annoying me.

 

[François Pugh]

RE: buckling. I'm in the camp where I do up the strap tight and the top buckle, loose, then flex against them to seat the heal, then tighten both top buckle and strap some more, the flex again to seat the heal, then alternately increase tension on top two buckles, a bit more in one allows more in the other, flexing all the while between tightening until done, with second buckle from top ending up being the tightest and it's job is to hold the heal in place. Then I do up the bottom buckles so that the are done up, but not at all tight, just enough to keep them buckled.

RE: tongues. I had spots in the tongues dug out to create a hole for bony protrusion at the top of my foot. Yes, you need to properly position the tongues.

 

[Noodler]

I NEED a heel lift on my left foot because the bone interferes with dorsiflexion. So I have some lift in both boots. He placed them under the boot board and and then did something to make sure that ramp angle was ok. I'm not clear on what he did exactly to make that work. After all that, he injected the foam into the liners to make sure that everything worked together well. I am sure that he will figure it out ok; he's really good. I'm just concerned that because I have a lifetime of cranking down the left foot buckles that I am still causing some issues myself. I put the tongue back in correctly and fixed that velcro connect. Who knows? Maybe that was the whole problem. The tongue was not in the correct position. I won't go back out there on the holiday weekend - maybe Monday. I will keep everything (except the power strap) really loose for a few runs before tightening up and see what happens.

You figured out my ulterior motive.. I just wanted you to figure out that your tongue was in the wrong position under the guise of getting some pictures.

I wanted to see if your liner had the "odd" tongue window that BD liners usually have (and it does). I get what they're trying to do, but in my opinion (and Sven Coomer) they're missing the mark. What the tongue should have (especially for someone like yourself with a sensitive instep) is an instep window. This is what it looks like on a ZipFIt:

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http://w.zipfit.com/images/techspecs_clip_image002_0005.jpg

Actually, the latest versions of ZipFit liners have a larger window and the only thing covering the instep is neoprene layers and the OMfit cork compound bladder. The hard plastic has been removed. This tongue instep design really, really works. I have seen boot fitters do this as a mod on liner tongues that don't have it. So this is something for you to consider. Have the hard plastic in the sensitive areas of your instep removed.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Actually, the latest versions of ZipFit liners have a larger window and the only thing covering the instep is neoprene layers and the OMfit cork compound bladder. The hard plastic has been removed. This tongue instep design really, really works. I have seen boot fitters do this as a mod on liner tongues that don't have it. So this is something for you to consider. Have the hard plastic in the sensitive areas of your instep removed.

My bootfitter cut away the hard plastic on the right boot's Zipfit liner's tongue. Nothing left but neoprene.
That eliminated the pain right there at the bend in the tongue.
I've not regretted having it done.

 

[Noodler]

My bootfitter cut away the hard plastic on the right boot's Zipfit liner's tongue. Nothing left but neoprene.
That eliminated the pain right there at the bend in the tongue.
I've not regretted having it done.

I hit that bend with a heat gun and reduced the curvature of the plastic instead of cutting. What you created sounds similar to what David McPhail advocates for the tongue design.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Noodler,
I worried that the stiff overlapping flaps of the shell would destroy that neoprene over time. Nope. It's been over two seasons now. But I do use a hairdryer to soften those two flaps every single time I boot up/deboot.

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

Thanks so much everybody. I feel like I have a better understanding of what to try before talking to my fitter in April. Apparently I have been obsessing too much on my boot - no skiing for a few days between massive rainstorms with flash flooding and then plenty more snow but a holiday weekend - because I am dreaming ski boots. Last night I dreamed that I bought a boot at Costco for $180 - just the left boot which felt like a great find. It fit great in the store. Once in the parking lot, I realized that it was a 3 buckle boot instead of a 4 buckle boot and worried that it wouldn't work well with my right boot. It then occurred to me that I hadn't checked the last so I googled it, and it was a 124! Fortunately, Costco has a great return policy!

 

[Pat AKA mustski]

Today, I tried ... making sure the tongue was properly installed in the liner, pulling up on the back of the liner to seat my heel, tightening only the strap and the ankle buckle and leaving the rest finger tight. I did not lace up the liner because it was a powder day and I did not want to waste time trying to find the laces. Overall, it was definitely better but there is still that hot spot on the instep. It was not as bad as usual and the skiing was really fun. Circulation be damned (JK) I just enjoyed skiing in 3D snow without my whole foot slopping around!

 

[KingGrump]

Last night I dreamed that I bought a boot at Costco for $180 - just the left boot which felt like a great find. It fit great in the store. Once in the parking lot, I realized that it was a 3 buckle boot instead of a 4 buckle boot and worried that it wouldn't work well with my right boot. It then occurred to me that I hadn't checked the last so I googled it, and it was a 124! Fortunately, Costco has a great return policy!

What did I tell you about bad drugs.