• For more information on how to avoid pop-up ads and still support SkiTalk click HERE.

Please help me learn from the video

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,980
Yes, indeed, I am standing on my toes most of the time and pressing on them all I could. That day, I was going about it in two ways: pulling up tails (almost dolphins) or pushing toes forward (kind of like mogul skiers seem to do). This is to keep tips connected to snow at all times to control speed. Not sure what I was doing there.
Well the question is are you willing to try skiing where you're not always mashing the front of the boot? You're losing the tail, and coupled with the other movement patterns you end up settled behind the skis. Then, as you say, pop up out of it.

Are these skis/bindings capable of the performance you're looking for on hard snow? I never ski that ultralight gear. What I hear from others is definitely not. You have other real alpine skis? Everyone is assessing this as if you're on a normal alpine ski on hard snow. It would be better to develop new patterns on alpine skis on firm snow and then transfer it to the uphill oriented skis.
 

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
Instructor
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
3,392
Location
Louisville CO/Aspen Snowmass
I asked about your willingness to work on your skiing because it is going to take many weeks of work to learn new movement patterns that are more likely to result in greater ski performance. It is also likely to require coaching by a competent ski pro who can provide feedback as to whether you are accomplishing the task as well as help you understand the difference between what you are doing and what would be more ideal. And that understanding will evolve and become deeper.

It’s not a trivial journey.

Mike
 
Thread Starter
TS
asolo

asolo

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Dec 25, 2018
Posts
138
Well the question is are you willing to try skiing where you're not always mashing the front of the boot? You're losing the tail, and coupled with the other movement patterns you end up settled behind the skis. Then, as you say, pop up out of it.

Are these skis/bindings capable of the performance you're looking for on hard snow? I never ski that ultralight gear. What I hear from others is definitely not. You have other real alpine skis? Everyone is assessing this as if you're on a normal alpine ski on hard snow. It would be better to develop new patterns on alpine skis on firm snow and then transfer it to the uphill oriented skis.

I have been a bit hesitant to just go for a pair of new skis w/o trying. Definitely plan on getting them, and likely more than one pair. I have skied on various rentals on and off. I did not identify a clear winner, so stopped for a bit thinking it's not the gear, but the skier :) Will definitely try again some "performance" rentals.

I have also got a pair of really old skis laying around, Rossignol Classic CS 70. They seem super heavy. I'll give them another shot.
 

François Pugh

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
Nov 17, 2015
Posts
7,684
Location
Great White North (Eastern side currently)
The CS 70 is a good carving ski, so long as it's not worn out. Go to a green hill, forget speed control, forget unweighting the skis, just point them downhill and tip left and right and see what happens. Tip more see what happens. Then work on cross-under transitions.
 

LiquidFeet

instructor
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,726
Location
New England
asolo unequal edge angles #2.png

Left turn A-frame. Inside ski is flatter than outside ski.
Confirm by noting the edge of the inside boot.
If inside knee were moved farther to the inside of the turn to get that ski more up on its little toe edge,
which is accompanied by rotating the inside femur more into the turn,
the edge angles could be equal, and the A-frame might disappear.
It certainly would be less dramatic.

asolo unequal edge angles #1 .png

Right turn A-frame. Inside ski is flatter than outside ski.
Confirm by noting the edge of the inside boot.
If inside knee were moved farther to the inside of the turn,
the edge angles could be equal, and the A-frame might disappear.
It certainly would be less dramatic.

A-frame conclusion: Alignment might help eliminate the A-frame,
but the movement pattern for both left and right turns needs modification as well.
 
Last edited:

LiquidFeet

instructor
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,726
Location
New England
Screen Shot 2019-02-05 at 9.02.05 AM.png
Screen Shot 2019-02-05 at 9.02.13 AM.png

These two images are nanoseconds apart.
The outside ski's tail washes out deep into the turn, increasing the highly visible A-frame.
More weight on that outside ski's tail at this point in the turn will help it hold.
This may involve sliding that ski forward along its length.
Easy to do, but feels weird at first. Just try it.
It may also involve having less weight on that inside ski.
Lighten/lift inside ski at end of turn, or through the entire turn.
This is confirm that you are directing pressure to the outside ski.
 
Last edited:

LiquidFeet

instructor
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,726
Location
New England
0. Screen Shot 2019-02-05 at 9.02.13 AM.png 1. Screen Shot 2019-02-05 at 9.03.23 AM.png 2. Screen Shot 2019-02-05 at 9.03.34 AM.png 4. Screen Shot 2019-02-05 at 9.05.57 AM.png

Here's the up move people are mentioning. You are extending your old inside leg/new outside leg to to flatten the skis, then getting low after your body crosses over the skis to their other side. This is a valid way of starting turns; nothing particularly wrong with it. (There is the flexion turn option; some may prescribe it for you.)

However, having an exclusive focus on the new outside leg/ski often leads to allowing that new inside ski/foot/leg to be lazy and lag behind. In this "extension" turn scenario, your new inside leg/foot/ski lags behind in its initiation movements due to lack of attention, contributing significantly to the A-frame if not totally causing it.

Focus on rolling the new inside ski onto its little toe edge in order to start the turn. Keep your mind on that foot from old turn's end through the entire new turn. Connect your mind to that ski, that foot, that knee, that thigh, that's skis' little toe edge sliding along on the snow, and that foot's arch being up in the air. This will require you to actively roll its knee over and reduce the annoying A-frame.

To what extent is alignment a part of this issue? Not sure. The third frame above is not clear enough for me to see if those two skis are both equally flat. If they are, if an A-frame is required to keep skis flat, then you need to visit the bootfitter to shim the soles. If the skis are indeed flat when you are standing upright and neutral without having to resort to an A-frame, then you don't need any bootwork.

Video rocks.
 
Last edited:

geepers

Skiing the powder
Skier
Joined
May 12, 2018
Posts
4,299
Location
Wanaka, New Zealand
While new skis may help and will certainly be fun, there's plenty that can be done with what you already have.

Passing through the fence at the bottom of the run (when you are going slower) the same motor pattern is exhibited.

Asolo5.jpg


No matter what ski you are using, predominantly balance over the outside ski.
 

Chris V.

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
Mar 25, 2016
Posts
1,391
Location
Truckee
Asolo, question for you. Do you feel you're getting solid lateral support from your boots? The frames that LiquidFeet so meticulously blew up are leading me to question this. If there's slop in there, it's going to have a big effect on your skiing. Improvement might require as little as buckling more tightly and maybe adjusting the shin angle, something most boots allow for.
 
Thread Starter
TS
asolo

asolo

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Dec 25, 2018
Posts
138
Asolo, question for you. Do you feel you're getting solid lateral support from your boots? The frames that LiquidFeet so meticulously blew up are leading me to question this. If there's slop in there, it's going to have a big effect on your skiing. Improvement might require as little as buckling more tightly and maybe adjusting the shin angle, something most boots allow for.

There is no play of any sort in the boots. The heels are very tight and the fronts are almost too tight. In fact, there may be a bit of alignment issue, since the left forefoot does not have enough space to stay quite flat. I plan to stop by a bootfitter to get things checked, but I do not think there is a problem.
 
Thread Starter
TS
asolo

asolo

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Dec 25, 2018
Posts
138

Speaking of video. I have been thinking about using a cheap smartphone with a flexible "tripod" (like gorilla pod) to attach the phone to a tree on the side of a run and just leave it on. Anybody tried this? Any other ideas?

I am pretty sure no resorts allow drones on slopes :) Having a partner video you is a major logistical pain and not much fun. There is a business idea there somewhere.
 

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,980
I have also got a pair of really old skis laying around, Rossignol Classic CS 70. They seem super heavy. I'll give them another shot.
That's a good ski. The system binding wasn't good but it'll work.
"Super heavy" - that's because you've been on super light only good for uphill skis. Those skis are doing you no favors on firm snow. Yes, movement patterns should be the same but if the ski takes too long to bite you'll make compensation.
 

Doby Man

Out on the slopes
Skier
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Posts
406
Location
Mostly New England
Thanks for analysis! I completely agree about extending (popping up) too high to unload and swing the skis. In fact, I had noticed this and worked on it and was able to achieve a smooth and level carving short turn but... only on softer snow. With the conditions at WP on Sunday, any of my attempts at a longer carving turn or a smooth short turn only accomplished my losing edges (for which I have a nice bruise on the hip to show).

I think the inner ski being out of alignment may have been a function of trying to not wipe out should the outer ski lose the edge. Hard to tell at this point.

P.S. Edges were tuned a day ago.

The interesting thing I find with your skiing is that you are dealing with the two same fundamental issues that @Smear is having with his skiing/MA which is 1. suppressing vertical motion and 2. not rotating the inside femur with the outside femur/unequal tipping/ lack of inside contribution. These two issues are the hallmark of a skier making the transition from straight ski technique to shaped ski technique and is a very common developmental perspective. Many expert skiers out there have yet to make/complete this “evolutionary” transition that is highlighted by these two basic motor patterns. It is a difficult transition to make because, while many of the movements are the same, the old technique is skiing from the top down and the new technique is skiing from the feet up (both feet). When we ski from the feet - up, the BoS is flexing up and down under a stable CoM position vs skiing top down whereby the CoM is flexing up and down over the BoS. From the feet up, turning becomes tipping centric vs extension centric. This represents a complete reversal of a skier’s vertical motion frame of reference regarding the CoM and the BoS and is rarely understood as such. As noted earlier, when the timing is initiated by this vertical motion, it is then further ingrained by the timing itself.
 

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
Instructor
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
3,392
Location
Louisville CO/Aspen Snowmass
The interesting thing I find with your skiing is that you are dealing with the two same fundamental issues that @Smear is having with his skiing/MA which is 1. suppressing vertical motion and 2. not rotating the inside femur with the outside femur/unequal tipping/ lack of inside contribution. These two issues are the hallmark of a skier making the transition from straight ski technique to shaped ski technique and is a very common developmental perspective. Many expert skiers out there have yet to make/complete this “evolutionary” transition that is highlighted by these two basic motor patterns. It is a difficult transition to make because, while many of the movements are the same, the old technique is skiing from the top down and the new technique is skiing from the feet up (both feet). When we ski from the feet - up, the BoS is flexing up and down under a stable CoM position vs skiing top down whereby the CoM is flexing up and down over the BoS. From the feet up, turning becomes tipping centric vs extension centric. This represents a complete reversal of a skier’s vertical motion frame of reference regarding the CoM and the BoS and is rarely understood as such. As noted earlier, when the timing is initiated by this vertical motion, it is then further ingrained by the timing itself.
Exactly. And why it is going to take a lot of work, and time, to learn something different but with greater ski performance.

So, @asolo, you didn't answer my question: how serious are you about doing something different and how much time and effort are you willing to invest? Depending on your answer, I will make some suggestions for you.

Mike
 

Smear

Getting off the lift
Skier
Joined
Mar 15, 2016
Posts
239
The interesting thing I find with your skiing is that you are dealing with the two same fundamental issues that @Smear is having with his skiing/MA which is 1. suppressing vertical motion and 2. not rotating the inside femur with the outside femur/unequal tipping/ lack of inside contribution. These two issues are the hallmark of a skier making the transition from straight ski technique to shaped ski technique and is a very common developmental perspective. Many expert skiers out there have yet to make/complete this “evolutionary” transition that is highlighted by these two basic motor patterns. It is a difficult transition to make because, while many of the movements are the same, the old technique is skiing from the top down and the new technique is skiing from the feet up (both feet). When we ski from the feet - up, the BoS is flexing up and down under a stable CoM position vs skiing top down whereby the CoM is flexing up and down over the BoS. From the feet up, turning becomes tipping centric vs extension centric. This represents a complete reversal of a skier’s vertical motion frame of reference regarding the CoM and the BoS and is rarely understood as such. As noted earlier, when the timing is initiated by this vertical motion, it is then further ingrained by the timing itself.

Hey @Doby Man, don't bring me into this ;-)

Actually my first thought was, hmm... that looks a lot like me. And that slope is probably steeper than it looks on video. Probably many of comments and drills suggestion that I have gotten in my MA-thread will also apply to you.

I also came to skiing though mountaineering and back country. For years I considered lifts and groomers as just practice for the real thing. Now I have seen the light and consider skiing groomers a a real sport ;-) @asolo , hmmm even the name gives hints to common grounds. Asolo Extreme anyone? Do you have a tele background?

If you find out that you want to play with canting under the Dynafit bindings, then it might be a good idea to install inserts first. Like quiver killer or bindingfreedom. Then you can use stainless steel M5 machine screws, take on an off as often as you like and easily grind screws to proper length. Cantco makes shims that are also supplied by tognar. Get an assessment at a boot fitter first, so you have an idea of what angle shims to order. Trying to do that in blind will on your own will be an exercise in frustration... Remember to show the video to the bootfitter.

What kind of boots did you end up with? Does your knee track inward when you flex forward in the boots? My AT-boots were (are) horrible at that, especially under load (?) like when skiing hard snow on wide skis... And that really exaggerates my already always present A-frame.
 
Thread Starter
TS
asolo

asolo

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Dec 25, 2018
Posts
138
Exactly. And why it is going to take a lot of work, and time, to learn something different but with greater ski performance.

So, @asolo, you didn't answer my question: how serious are you about doing something different and how much time and effort are you willing to invest? Depending on your answer, I will make some suggestions for you.

Mike

Mike, sorry, I thought I did answer. I have been skiing quite consistently the last two seasons. I am at 27 days this season and hope to ski into June (and then head south). So, yes, I am prepared to put a lot of work into this. Any suggestions would be welcome.
 

Mike King

AKA Habacomike
Instructor
Joined
Nov 13, 2015
Posts
3,392
Location
Louisville CO/Aspen Snowmass
First of @asolo, you are going to need a coach. It's one thing to get advice from a ski forum, but another to have an external evaluator who can not only assign the work, but provide the critical feedback as to whether you are accomplishing the task or not. Your movement patterns are deeply ingrained and stem from not only your experience, but also from your belief system about how the skis perform, what movement patterns create performance, and your success in achieving those movement patterns. Don't get me wrong -- your current skiing is highly functional, but if you really want to find out what the skis can do for you, it is going to take more than an internet derived drill pattern and a bunch of repetitions.

So, where do you usually ski and are you able to form a long-term relationship with a coach?

Now onto what I (and I think others) see as the movements that need to be addressed to move you on the path of higher ski performance. Currently, you create edge by moving the upper body into the turn (inclining) and pushing the skis away from you until you achieve a high enough edge angle that the skis deflect and redirect your mass. As @Doby Man indicated above, a more efficient movement patter is to create the edge by tipping the skis early in the turn. That is, you need to learn to stay with the ski but tip the lower body (specifically the lower legs) into the turn -- the upper body may follow, but the edging movements are driven by tipping the lower leg.

So, a place to start is to work on skating. Why skating? To efficiently skate, you need to be able to establish a platform that can accept pressure before propelling yourself off of that platform. Get on the souhortest, narrowest skis that you have -- narrow to minimize the leverage that comes from a wide ski, and short to make the whole exercise easier. To make this harder, find a level spot, or even one that is slightly uphill. This exercise should also be done without poles -- no cheating! To start skating, one leg is going to be the first one that you push off of. Have that ski at an oblique angle to your body -- say 45 degrees. Roll the knee in and down -- this tips the ski on edge -- and then push off and land and glide on the other foot. Roll that knee in and down and then push off of that foot. Don't push until you've rolled the knee in and down. Note that in order to accomplish the roll of the knee, you need to start in a relatively flexed position -- that is, somewhere around halfway between being tall and being as compressed as you could be. From this flexed position, the rolling of the knee down and in is actually being accomplished by rotating your femur (upper leg). Notice that when you get the knee moving in and down how much it tips the lower leg.o

Don't shortchange the skating practice. When I went through this progression, I spent more than 2 hours straight practicing it up and small hill. It's really useful to have a coach also watching to see that you are actually establishing the edge.

This whole first part of the progression is about learning how to tip the lower leg. It is NOT about pushing off of the edge once establish. In performance skiing, we almost never look to push the ski, so be sure you are focusing on the objective of this task -- it's about creating edge by tipping the lower leg RATHER THAN by pushing the ski away from you.

Once you have achieved the ability to tip the lower leg to establish edge, you can move onto the next step, which is how to apply the edge to carve a turn. This task uses J turns. A J turn is a simple CARVED turn starting from the skis being in the fall line. So, start in a straight run straight down the fall line on gentle terrain. BEFORE STARTING, LOOK FOR TRAFFIC ABOVE YOU! The skis should be running flat on their bases. Now use that down and in movement of the knee to create edge and continue to tip the skis. The objective is to have a perfectly carved turn that takes you not only across the hill, but also up the hill. See how far up the hill you can get. Look at your tracks to ensure that you are seeing a perfectly carved turn -- that is, you should have two pencil lines from the fall line all the way through the turn. REMEMBER THAT THE OBJECTIVE HERE IS TO TAKE THAT LOWER LEG TIPPING INTO THIS EXERCISE! So don't move the upper body into the turn -- tip the lower leg to engage the edge and turn the ski.

Given the video you provided here, I suspect you will have an issue with the inside foot/leg. if you are not being successful, first try picking up the tail of the inside ski in the fall line, then rolling the knee of the outside leg in and down to tip the ski. When you are able to achieve a carved turn on the one foot with the carve continuing a considerable distance up the hill, then we can turn our attention to the inside knee and ski.

Both knees need to move into the turn and down toward the snow. For the outside knee, the inside movement moves the knee toward the centerline of body, while the inside knee is moving externally, but still into the turn. So it's easiest to remember this as the knees move inside and down.

To focus further on the inside leg, think of driving the turn with that inside knee. So as you start the carve out of the fall line, focus on moving the inside knee into the turn and down toward the snow and allow the outside knee to follow. JF Beaulieu says that the inside leg is the decider and the outside leg is the rider. While almost all of your weight should be on the outside ski at this point, keep a small amount of pressure on the inside ski. Think about tracing the arc with that outside edge of the inside ski.

Once you can reliably generate arcs both directions in your J turns, try linking them together. Don't allow your movements to start with the upper body. As you roll into your first turn, roll those knees down and into the turn, then roll them from that turn to flat (feel flat for a second) then roll them down and into the next turn. Did you feel the skis carve cleanly from one turn to the next? If not, then think about whether you allowed the upper body to dive into the turn and take your edging away.

This will take a while to perfect. Make sure you start on easy terrain. Step up the steepness as you gain proficiency. Once you are able to carve even on a moderately steep slope, you will have started on the path to have a new movement pattern.

So, what is it that this progression is accomplishing and why is it important? What we are trying to do is to progressively establish edge high in the turn. And if the edge is established appropriately, without pivoting the ski, then the ski can and will bend. And if it bends early in the turn, then we are going to be able to move the point of maximum pressure up in the turn and you will correspondingly have more ability to send your mass across the hill. This will also give you access to speed control through turn shape rather than through displacing the ski.

Let's start there.

Mike
 
Thread Starter
TS
asolo

asolo

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Dec 25, 2018
Posts
138
Hey @Doby Man, don't bring me into this ;-)

Actually my first thought was, hmm... that looks a lot like me. And that slope is probably steeper than it looks on video. Probably many of comments and drills suggestion that I have gotten in my MA-thread will also apply to you.

I also came to skiing though mountaineering and back country. For years I considered lifts and groomers as just practice for the real thing. Now I have seen the light and consider skiing groomers a a real sport ;-) @asolo , hmmm even the name gives hints to common grounds. Asolo Extreme anyone? Do you have a tele background?

If you find out that you want to play with canting under the Dynafit bindings, then it might be a good idea to install inserts first. Like quiver killer or bindingfreedom. Then you can use stainless steel M5 machine screws, take on an off as often as you like and easily grind screws to proper length. Cantco makes shims that are also supplied by tognar. Get an assessment at a boot fitter first, so you have an idea of what angle shims to order. Trying to do that in blind will on your own will be an exercise in frustration... Remember to show the video to the bootfitter.

What kind of boots did you end up with? Does your knee track inward when you flex forward in the boots? My AT-boots were (are) horrible at that, especially under load (?) like when skiing hard snow on wide skis... And that really exaggerates my already always present A-frame.

Thank you for suggestions!

I settled on Technica Cochise 120 Dyn. The boots are too tight to be of any use touring or even boot packing (at least at the moment), but otherwise seem to be a solid alpine boot (with walking mode, which, yes, compromises the flex somewhat). The boots have alpine sole and Dyn fittings. This way I can use my BC skis for soft snow or moguls and start building up a selection of downhill skis. Also easy to to rent, for instance, a super wide ski for a cat skiing day.

At the moment, I use Dynafit TLT7 Performance for back country. The main issue there is that these are two sizes too big. Works great for touring, not so great for downhill.

I am considering either Technica Zero G or Dalbello Lupo AX 120 for my backcountry needs. Probably will go with Zero G in my measured mondo size (alpine boots are -1 size).

P.S. My alias is just initials and with a nod to the Italian fotwear company. I gave up my last Asolo boots when I switched to trail runners for everything (including glacier travel) :)
 
Thread Starter
TS
asolo

asolo

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Dec 25, 2018
Posts
138
First of @asolo, you are going to need a coach. It's one thing to get advice from a ski forum, but another to have an external evaluator who can not only assign the work, but provide the critical feedback as to whether you are accomplishing the task or not. Your movement patterns are deeply ingrained and stem from not only your experience, but also from your belief system about how the skis perform, what movement patterns create performance, and your success in achieving those movement patterns. Don't get me wrong -- your current skiing is highly functional, but if you really want to find out what the skis can do for you, it is going to take more than an internet derived drill pattern and a bunch of repetitions.

So, where do you usually ski and are you able to form a long-term relationship with a coach?

Now onto what I (and I think others) see as the movements that need to be addressed to move you on the path of higher ski performance. Currently, you create edge by moving the upper body into the turn (inclining) and pushing the skis away from you until you achieve a high enough edge angle that the skis deflect and redirect your mass. As @Doby Man indicated above, a more efficient movement patter is to create the edge by tipping the skis early in the turn. That is, you need to learn to stay with the ski but tip the lower body (specifically the lower legs) into the turn -- the upper body may follow, but the edging movements are driven by tipping the lower leg.

So, a place to start is to work on skating. Why skating?
Mike

I totally follow what you are saying. I have and to practice skating on skis (skating is easy, I did some competitive figure skating as a kid; still can skate). Also, one legged skiing, like those racer kids do at Steamboat.

My problem with any carving exercises is this. On soft snow I can carve long turns and do "floating" short turns no problem. Put me on hard pack and all I get is skis refusing to hold an edge. The edges may bite a little in the upper part of the arc, then lower under any pressure will either slide out entirely or start to skip-slide and possibly eject.

I think I know exactly what type of turn and what feeling I am after, I just can't get it on hard pack.
 

James

Out There
Instructor
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Posts
24,980
Put me on hard pack and all I get is skis refusing to hold an edge. The edges may bite a little in the upper part of the arc, then lower under any pressure will either slide out entirely or start to skip-slide and possibly eject.
Your skis are crap for that purpose.
You put in too much time to try and make an uphill ski and binding (?) work on groomers. Might as well use straight skis.

It's the height of irony that people are specific about what skis examiners want to see but overlook that aspect here.
 

Sponsor

Staff online

Top