Gear Playing around to keep entertained

[jmeb]

@SkiFiore, as @jmeb mentions, a lot of the lists you see on guide’s websites tend to have to many items of clothing, and not take into account the currently available technical options.

Agreed. Many feel a bit outdated.

There's a lot of calculus to what is good to carry. I'd recommend over packing a bit on your way over, and then making the call on final packed materials before you set out depending on what weather looks like. On the trip I had a hardshell 3L pant to take instead if the weather called for storms. I had a pair of big mittens if it was going to be cold. Those things didn't go with and I'm glad for it.

Many other choices depend on the high route in questions. Bigger skis vs lighter. Airbag pack or no. How much glacial gear.

I'm not saying, don't be prepared -- just that weather forecasts now are pretty darn good for about 5-days and the infrastructure in the Alps is pretty incredible should a retreat be necessary. Hut trips in Colorado are typically more remote affairs than the Alps.

 

[Slim]

Yep, agree with you @jmeb.
I travel to Europe most years, and for something like a overnight hut trips, I too pack a few options, and decide at the last minute.

I'm not saying, don't be prepared -- just that weather forecasts now are pretty darn good for about 5-days and the infrastructure in the Alps is pretty incredible should a retreat be necessary. Hut trips in Colorado are typically more remote affairs than the Alps.

I think a lot of over packing comes from not looking at a systems approach, and also, as you mentioned, from not considering the current conditions.

I still always want to be prepared for the possible weather(check the forecast), including several hours or even a night out.
You are right that between huts, lifts and helicopters, the chance of spending a long time out in Alps is much, much lower than in North America. But even with that infrastructure, you might be stuck for several hours easily in case of injury, or possibly overnight in case of bad weather. A few years ago an experienced, guided, skitouring group got caught bad weather, lost their way and had to hunker down for the night.

My experience is that in winter conditions, you get cold very, very, quickly once you are Immobile. Even worse in the case of an avalanche rescue, where the victim is near hypothermic to start.
At the same time, modern gear is so lightweight and compact, there is very little reason not to bring something warm. No, I am not talking about bring full camping gear for a comfy night out! Just bringing enough to hopefully stave of hypothermia.

That down parka pictured weighs 400g/14 oz. If you bring a thinner one, your are only saving the weight of the down. The fabric and notions stay the same.
So, if I took one that is half as warm, I would only save 4oz, since the total fill weight is about 8 oz.
And that’s for a very minimal parka. Most down jackets are only about 30% down/total weight, so halving the amount of down, (almost) halves the warmth, but only drops the weight by 15%!

 

[Slim]

@jmeb , looking at your list, a few questions:
No regular socks? I only see 2 ski socks?
No pants? Did you wear your Pata long underwear in the hut?
No sun brim cap/hat?

 

[mdf]

The other thing is, did you then walk around the huts in your long underwear? Certainly possible if you pick somehting more on tight’s like and less underwear like.

I can't add anything for backpacking, but I decided long ago that long underwear counts as pants. The rise of yoga pants has validated that decision.

 

[jmeb]

- Wore ski socks in the hut. Could see bringing one spare pair of regular.
- Correct -- wore ski pants and or long underwear in the hut. Was fine by me. A pair of shorts to throw over your long underwear if you're modest.
- No sun/brim hat. I was going a bit earlier in the year (mid-March) than most Haute Route trips so managed it w/o much issue. Sunscreen obviously, and shades. Euros are all about sunglasses + headbands. Sun hats were uncommon sight. Could def see a lightweight hat w/ sweat band in it.

 

[Slim]

- Wore ski socks in the hut. Could see bringing one spare pair of regular.
- Correct -- wore ski pants and or long underwear in the hut. Was fine by me. A pair of shorts to throw over your long underwear if you're modest.
- No sun/brim hat. I was going a bit earlier in the year (mid-March) than most Haute Route trips so managed it w/o much issue. Sunscreen obviously, and shades. Euros are all about sunglasses + headbands. Sun hats were uncommon sight. Could def see a lightweight hat w/ sweat band in it.

yep, when I was thinking about hardshell pants only, I was thinking of adding some board shorts to wear underneath, as well as that being something to wear in the hut.
Baseball cap is a personal thing, I always wear some kind of brim/visor any time I am outside.

 

[Slim]

I can't add anything for backpacking, but I decided long ago that long underwear counts as pants. The rise of yoga pants has validated that decision.

I have a pair of Capilene Thermal weight long underpants, and they are great, except that they have a fly. They are fleecy, so in my opinion, could definitely be worn as tights, at least in huts or ski condo's, but the obvious fly makes them unequivocally, 100%, underpants

 

[mdf]

I have a pair of Capilene Thermal weight long underpants, and they are great, except that they have a fly. They are fleecy, so in my opinion, could definitely be worn as tights, at least in huts or ski condo's, but the obvious fly makes them unequivocally, 100%, underpants

How long is your shirt tail?

 

[Slim]

Here is an organized packing list. Excluding technical gear, as it is very trip dependent and depends on what you have.

 

[Snowflake2420]

@jmeb thanks for sharing your real world list along with the comments

 

[Slim]

Can’t edit anymore, but in the list above, I would leave behind the baselayer bottoms if daytime highs were forecast to be above freezing everyday.

On thing that made me think of this was a movie I watched a while ago:
Skitour des Lebens.
Here’s a screen shot:

In that case it’s clear that many of the clients overpacked. They have huge packs, even though some of them are not in great shape or great skiers. Conversely, the guide, who certainly can handle all the skiing and skinning easily, has a very modest sized pack!

Even with someone like @jmeb who packed very minimaly. Looking at his list, the only item I see unused(other than emergency gear ) is the extra T shirt.
And still the guide had less

 

[jmeb]

And still the guide had less

Yep. To be fair he was a much smaller dude than yours truly. Plus he was able to store at least a change of base layers at night 2 of the trip since his partner runs the small inn we stayed at.

But he definitely had a 40m rope in there and a solid repair/med kit.

 

[Snowflake2420]

Sorry one more question @jmeb. I noted your comment about your 104 underfoot skis.

I'm also in Colorado and accustomed to 10-something being a very normal set up whether in bounds or out. I've been looking at the Ortler route in Italy and many gear lists say skis 85-95, which sounds quite unpleasant to me haha. I've owned lightweight ski set ups in the past and yes they were great for skinning, but not as enjoyable on the down and therefore I've gone to more of a mid weight setup, such as Atris birdie + Alpinist. I realize this is quite a wide ski, but a set up I use all around in CO. Would I be crazy to bring such a set up to Europe? I'd like to do a hut to hut trip like Ortler that has a focus on descents, but not a big traverse like the Haute Route.

I like having a little more ski than I need especially when dealing with weird snow.

Thanks for letting us pick your brain.

 

[jmeb]

@SkiFiore -- as an annoying answer I realize this is...it depends.

The primary problem with my setup at 104 wasn't the 104 itself, but the ski/binding/ski crampon combination. I used a Vipec. The ski cramps are available only in 100 and 120 and the 100 didn't fit. Which meant that I had to use a 120mm. That's fat. And the fatness created a lot of leverage on the sort of fiddly crampon design those bindings have which lead to a part bending (luckily not breaking.) The legit scariest parts of my trip (and the most exhausting for sure) were some of the more exposed skin tracks above hazards that were icy. Ski crampons are a non-negotiable. I'd personally trade off a narrower ski for a) more confidence in those sections and b) lighter weight.

Assuming the Alpinist uses a more classic ski crampon design that is more solid, and assuming you could get a 110mm crampon to fit, I think it would be noticeably better than my 120 setup.

To really know though, you'd want to look at the route in question and ask yourself how many sunny/icy skins you're likely to be doing. How late in the year? (later == even more icy sidehills.) Skin tracks with lots of exposure over cliffs/icefalls?

All that said, a 10X ski is probably the right OSQ for ski touring in CO. And it is certainly doable in the Alps. I have a friend that just got back from bagging corn descents on Lotus 120s for a week and was a happy camper.

 

[Slim]

Few remarks that I have read regarding ski width:

-If it is icy, and you are in a popular touring area, the existing skin track will be in place. Likely made by people with narrow skis. I can't imagine anything more unpleasant than trying to slide a wide ski and ski crampon through a narrow frozen track
That said, not every wide waisted ski also has super wide shovel. Your Atris for example, lists a 136mm tip. While the Camox freebird (95mm), lists a 130mm tip. So only 6 mm difference. So if, like @jmeb mentioned, you can get a nice and narrow ski crampon (maybe even less than '110', depending on width of skis at that spot, try some), it wouldn't be too bad.

-My friend who tours mostly in Austria, was astounded by the width of my new skis, the Wayback 106.

The other thing that I could see, is that a wider ski, and especially a wider ski crampon, is simply less comfortable, when side hilling on firm snow.

@SkiFiore:
The firmer and icier I'd expect the conditions to be, (could be earlier in the season too, depending on weather), and the more popular the area, the more I'd consider bringing a narrower ski.
Would you like an excuse to buy another ski? There you have it. We are great enablers here... If you didn't like super light narrow skis, perhaps a 90-95mm ski with a bit heavier construction would suit you?

Otherwise, you could always figure out a rental ahead of time, and then commit to that only at the last moment if the conditions seem to warrant it.