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Slim

Making fresh tracks
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I have been dreaming of the future, and one cool idea is an alpine hut to hut ski tour in Europe. It won’t happen soon, since our plans for practice and learning this year won’t happen, but I had started to gear up.
So, just for fun, I tried packing my 30l Mammut Airbag pack for a hut trip. My original plan when I bought this pack, was to buy the 45l and switch the Airbag unit over for hut trips, and then my wife could use this one (she has a 20l version).


So I wanted to see if I could make the 30l pack work. I can, but it’s a terrible squeeze, and makes it awkward to take items out or put them in the pack.
To test this, I imagined the scenario of skinning uphill in warm weather. So wearing the least amount of layers, not wearing the harness etc.

Here is the packing list, which I think covers all temperatures/weather conditions effectively. What do you think? Did I forget anything?
  • Cap, headband thin gloves and sunglasses: worn
  • Softshell pants with side zips and long sleeve Hooded Merino T: worn
  • #1 pair ski socks and underpants: worn
  • Skis, boots, poles and skins on snow
In pack:
  • toothbrush and paste, small first aid.
  • headlamp
  • compass, cell phone, battery
  • #2 pair ski socks and underpants
  • evening socks
  • long underwear
  • waterproof pants and jacket
  • Hooded Pata Mission Peak windshell with slight insulation in front
  • Marmot Polartech Alpha hooded vest
  • GTX shell- and insulated -mittens
  • 1l water bottle
  • repair kit, shovel and probe
  • ski and boot crampons
  • harness, 4 biners, tibloc, locking pulley, 2 slings, ice screw
  • breathable bivy, thick down parka
  • sleeping bag liner (sleep sack)
  • Helmet, goggles, buff and ice axe are the only things on the outside of the pack
Rope would need to go on the outside of pack as well, unless using a short piece of one of the 6mm hyper static glacier ropes.

Total pack weight without food or water is <20lbs. In Europe, I could get the carbon cylinder and save both space and several hundred grams.

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Snowflake2420

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Oh fun indoors activity! It's my dream to do a hut to hut trip. I just got a 35L Mammut pack and love the features and lay out, very practical.
 

Pequenita

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Stove? Or would you put warmish water in the bottle and use that to melt drinking water?
 
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Slim

Slim

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Stove? Or would you put warmish water in the bottle and use that to melt drinking water?
This is for a hut trip, no way I could get alpine gear and camping gear in a 30l pack! :geek:
 

jmeb

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FWIW, I found it totally possible to skip the recommendation of a set of softshell and a set of hardshells. No one in our group had anything but one good 3L waterproof pant and shell. I took a "soft shell" pant with a waterproof membrane and lots of vents, and a hardshell jacket that was mostly in the pack except a few descents. Most days I toured in a base layer + houdini and occasionally a light hooded fleece (like an R1). I think you may have a bit of redundancy with some of the layering -- but layering is hyper personal.

My guide did the 5 day tour with a 28L pack. That included a solid med kit and rope. But he's a small dude who lives with few luxuries. I took a 40L pack that was pretty damn full.

List looks pretty good to me. Certainly want a small journal and something to read.

I did the Urner Haute route. I wrote it up here: https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php/327389-TR-Urner-Haute-Route-2019 but never transferred it over to Pugski. Feel free to DM me any questions. I highly recommend the guide I used.
 

Pequenita

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This is for a hut trip, no way I could get alpine gear and camping gear in a 30l pack! :geek:

I was thinking more that 1L of water didn't seem like much in the way of hydration for a late season ski, so the alternative is to carry warmer water so you can toss snow into it and create water, or to melt snow.
 

Tony Storaro

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This is for a hut trip, no way I could get alpine gear and camping gear in a 30l pack! :geek:

You can fit MSR Pocket Rocket in virtually ANY pocket on your jacket or pants and their smallest isopro cartridges are no bigger than a medium sized apple, just sayin'...
 
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Slim

Slim

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I was thinking more that 1L of water didn't seem like much in the way of hydration for a late season ski, so the alternative is to carry warmer water so you can toss snow into it and create water, or to melt snow.
I realized that’s what you meant this morning, duh! Good call! Need to add more water.
I do like having a water bottle accessible on the front. Often use the shoulder trap mounted ones, but on this pack, the airbag is in the shoulder strap, so I need to see what I can fit there. Otherwise a waist mounted bottle holder. Or, as you mention, a stove.
You can fit MSR Pocket Rocket in virtually ANY pocket on your jacket or pants and their smallest isopro cartridges are no bigger than a medium sized apple, just sayin'...
Yes, indeed, for a group of three or so, a stove is much lighter than water. I have several of those. You do need a pot too, not just stove and canister..;)
 
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Primoz

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Luckily this "isolation" thing didn't change much for me, as I can still do pretty much all I was doing until now (most of ski tours in this time of the year are alone anyway), all the running and mtb is almost always alone so...
But to the point... my ABS has 30L zipon, and while it says 30L, I have absolutely no idea where they found those 30L, and I honestly have no idea how I would pack stuff that I think I would need for several days hut-to-hut tour. I was actually close to trying it last winter, as we were thinking going Haute Route with few friends, but never made it afterall. I'm honestly close to limit for one day tour in spring weather, where I need more water, crampons and ice axes. So either I have no idea how to pack stuff, or this 30L zipon is closer to 10L then to 30L :D So maybe, I will actually try your project in next days :D
 
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Slim

Slim

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FWIW, I found it totally possible to skip the recommendation of a set of softshell and a set of hardshells. No one in our group had anything but one good 3L waterproof pant and shell. I took a "soft shell" pant with a waterproof membrane and lots of vents, and a hardshell jacket that was mostly in the pack except a few descents. Most days I toured in a base layer + houdini and occasionally a light hooded fleece (like an R1). I think you may have a bit of redundancy with some of the layering -- but layering is hyper personal.
For tops, my system is virtually identical to yours:
  • baselayer,
  • windshirt (Peak Mission instead of Houdini)
  • hooded fleece (here that’s a Polartech Alpha 60 vest instead of long sleeve, but same function and warmth, just a bit lighter and more breathable)
  • hard shell jacket in the pack most of the time.

For pants, I have considered other options.
I have also looked at the hybrid hard shell/soft shell ones, that seems appealing. One difficulty that I have is my size: 32(waist)x36. Hard to find outdoor pants.
I have the Mammut Base Jump Pants . They are a classic Schoeller Softshell pant: I.e. no membrane. They really are the perfect skitouring pant. most important, they fit perfect. Good freedom of movement, tough, wind and water resistant enough, but breathable (and vented).
The hard shell pants I have in there are Mtn Hardwear Stretch Ozonic Pants. At 10 oz/ 285g they are fairly light for a full size zip pant,and with stretch and a trim fit, I can actually climb or ski in them.
You are saying your group all just used a full waterproof(or nearly so) pant as their only pant? I have considered that, but haven’t found one that I fits well enough and breathes well enough to wear in hot weather.
Then there is extreme cold weather. In this case I could layer the knee length long underwear with the brushed Schoeller and waterproof pants for a fairly warm system for emergencies.
The other thing is, did you then walk around the huts in your long underwear? Certainly possible if you pick somehting more on tight’s like and less underwear like.

My guide did the 5 day tour with a 28L pack. That included a solid med kit and rope. But he's a small dude who lives with few luxuries. I took a 40L pack that was pretty damn full. List looks pretty good to me. Certainly want a small journal and something to read.
Yeah, same here: this is a 30l Airbag pack, so about 26l of volume left after the airbag system. And no luxuries. However, I am 6’5”, so my clothes are a touch bigger. Still most of the stuff stays the same, like climbing and avy gear. I don’t bring books or journals. I have in the past, never use them. He cheated, switched undies half way through at his wife’s hotel!:roflmao:

This pack would be just a hair to small for me, unless I got the Euro Carbon cylinder, and it was warm weather forecast, then I‘d bring my summer weight down jacket and leave the vest behind.
It fits to tight to be practical. Makes getting stuff in or out of the pack to slow and awkward. But, if I got the 45l, my wife could use this one and we would average about 34l between the two of us, that would be just right. And of course, for tours that don’t require technical technical gear, that would save a fair bit of space.
 
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Slim

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I did the Urner Haute route. I wrote it up here:
I did read that! Super fun! Was thinking of contacting that guide after your glowing report. But, with lack of learning this year, it will be at least 2022 before we head to the Alps in spring. Did you see the Salomon TV video where they do that route?
 
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Slim

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@Primoz , happy to inspire someone! Yeah, pack volumes are always random, just like ski boot flexes :ogbiggrin:.
Then you have to subtract 3-6l for the airbag system, and depending on layout, can make the remaining volume be hard to fill and access.
One reason I chose the Mammut Protection Airbag, is that part of the airbag sits in the shoulder straps, so you have a bit more space available inside the pack.

In your case, if your pack has zip on’s why not just get a larger zip on? That was my plan all along too. Mammut doesn’t have “zip on’s”, you remove the entire airbag system from the pack and install it in a pack you buy without airbag, so same effect, just not as quick.
 

Primoz

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@Slim why not to get larger zipon? Because I probably made stupid decision when getting ABS, and I took Powder unit not Vario. It fits nicer, and is in general better for me, but you are limited to exactly 2 zipons.... both ABS only and one is 8L the other is 30L. With Vario I would had way more chances, and way better chances, but I honestly didn't even think on this at time when I was buying it. So for now, I will stick with this what I have, and when it will be time for changing whole thing, I will definitely take this into consideration :)
 

jmeb

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@jmeb do you have a gear list for your trip?

Here's what I have...looks mostly complete.


TypeDescriptionComments
TechnicalSkiDown Countdown 104LBit too wide. Weight and skiing worked well
TechnicalBindingFristchi VipecSkis well, but would prefer simpler/more reliable.
TechnicalSki CramponsVipec 120Too wide for sidehills and too complicated
TechnicalBootHawx XTD$$$. Heavy for 5 day tour but felt great
TechnicalSkinsContour HybridYes x 3
TechnicalCramponsGrivel Ski Matic 2.0Simple, no walkmode interferance. Three stars
TechnicalPolesBD Expedition 3.0Would've been great if I hadn't left them at a train station
TechnicalBeaconTracker 3
TechnicalShovelBD DeployPacks easily.
TechnicalProbeBCA 300
TechnicalBackpackPatagonia Decensionist (40L)Light and simple. Carried well enough
TechnicalAxeGrivel G1Too long, get shorter (~50cm).
TechnicalHarnessBD glacial harnessSimple and worked
TechnicalLocking biners2x (various)
Technical120 Slingdyneema
TechnicalFirst Aid Kit3 day kit w/ blister additions.
TechnicalRepair KitStraps, zip ties, screws, multi tool, driver, skin wax, batteries
TechnicalHeadlampBD lamp w/ red lightRed light critical for not being asshat in huts.
ClothingSunglassesDotDash Polarized WrapDidn't breathe quite well enough
ClothingGooglesI/OX w/ 2 lensesOnly took the low-light lense
ClothingBoxers2x, synthetic
ClothingBaselayer - PantsPata Capilene Midweight
ClothingBaselayer - TopPata Capilene Midweight ZipCould've ditched and used tee for last day or two
ClothingBaselayer - TopLightweight merino zip
ClothingBaselayer - Hut teePata Capilene Daily
ClothingFleeceR1 tech fleece
ClothingWindblockPata Houdini VestOn most of the time skinning
ClothingInsulationDown puffyNeed true down puffy (not w/ fleece backer which is big to pack)
ClothingSki JacketFRS Antero II Plus (Waterproof/breathable NeoShell)
ClothingSki PantFlylow Magnum (Waterproof/breathable w/ vents)Perfect for tour like this. Lots of vents
ClothingGlove - LightHead running glovesOn most of the time
ClothingGlove - HeavyHestra-like with removable liner
ClothingSki sock2x Merino
ClothingWarm HatBrooks Range Wool / fleece
PersonalWater1L Nalgene
PersonalWater.5L PlatypusNice for days where water plentiful.
PersonalSleep SackSilk blend
Personal
PersonalP&S CameraCanon SX280
PersonalPhone
PersonalBackup Battery bank
PersonalKindle
PersonalJournalSmall

EDIT: Things not on this list that I took:

- Garmin InReach Mini. Love that thing.
 
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jmeb

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I did read that! Super fun! Was thinking of contacting that guide after your glowing report. But, with lack of learning this year, it will be at least 2021 before we head to the Alps in spring. Did you see the Salomon TV video where they do that route?

Yep. Sure did -- fun to go back and recognize a few places in it.
 
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Slim

Slim

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@SkiFiore, as @jmeb mentions, a lot of the lists you see on guide’s websites tend to have too many items of clothing, and not take into account the currently available technical options.
 
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Slim

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@Slim , but you are limited to exactly 2 zipons.... both ABS only and one is 8L the other is 30L. :)
Aha, that makes sense!

In the mean time, you can get a bit more stuff into the pack by adding pouches to the outside.
I added a waist belt pouch from Zpacks to my Mammut pack, keeps things accessible, as well as adding some volume. On my wife’s pack I added a large flat zippered pouch on the back, great for the thick gloves and a down jacket, makes it easy to get out at stops.
And then there are the chest strap pockets, great for cameras or water bottles:
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