Pivot slip demo

[JESinstr]

In the context of motion, skiing is highly binary. As @razie says, you are either carving or you are not. You are either creating circular travel or you are going straight. When you are carving, the ski is turning you, when invoking rotary, you are turning the skis. A skier offensively creates circular travel and defensively addresses straight line travel.

The pivot slip is a legitimate maneuver that involves rotary and edging while attempting to go straight. The skier is using skills intended for circular travel initiation yet not allowing the carving process to begin. It is indeed a unique test of ones ability to employ their skill set to unique situations.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

I began teaching in what I would term as a Rotary-based system (sideslipping, uphilll christes etc.) as a path to parallel. at the same time I was realizing that the best skier’s carved their turns & all this skidding and slipping seemed contradictory. I quickly became a believer in an edge and pressure emphasized approach both for my own skiing & that of my students. As my experience & horizons expanded I realized that versatility is the real key to enjoying all conditions and pivoting (along with all other instructor tricks both old and new) is a part of that.
...
Would you agree that someone who has difficulty with pivot slips is lacking in some area?

I began teaching in what I would term as the Edge-to-Edge based system (Elan SCX parabolic skis) experimenting with "direct to parallel," Skier's Edge era.

A while ago our trainer told me that my rotary skill was lacking and he and others have suggested that I master pivot slips to build up my rotary skills. So, yes I am proof that someone who has difficulty with pivot slips is lacking in some area . . . err, the rotary-feet-steering area.

This is the most interesting part of the pivot slip to me - the release:

Release
Also, the release matters and needs to be practiced, once you get the rotation of the legs separate from the upper body going. I'm happy to see the PSIA Matrix video above shows both an extension release and a flexion release being used in their models. They both work, and they work when blended as well.

From watching Bob Barnes and Jerry Berg's pivot slip drill video, it seems to me that there should be no edge release.

I assume that is why Bob Barnes wants us to use a relatively steep slope, a fast speed, and absolutely no mid-point stopping! All to prevent us from setting the uphill edges during the slip downhill.

So, that our hips are always moving downhill, we are always on a flat ski, so we never have to release the edge during this upper body lower body separation drill - ever.

Otherwise you can try an extension to release the edges, but at least when I do it, the release necessarily becomes sequential because when I extend the uphill leg I end up setting the downhill edge on my uphill ski. (I think I even saw some uphill ski push off in some of the edge releases in some of the videos.)

And wouldn't even a purely "legs up" retraction turn necessarily be sequential also, unless there is also some way to start the hips moving down the hill again?

Maybe a wrench in the works, but sometimes pivot slips with a different focus can really open doors. How do we release the edge? Can we play with lateral weight distribution other than 50/50? Can we talk about pressure and edging vs. rotary? Definitely interesting to play with.

It would be interesting to play with Tom Gellie's bump hips-moving-down-the-hill-movement in a lateral way to release the edges during a pivot slip to edge set to pivot slip drill . . .

 

[Mike King]

Edge release? There is an edge change where the skis are perfectly flat. There’s also a change in ski performance. From the side slip to the edge change, the tips are steered down the hill. From edge change (skis straight down the fall line) to the side slip, the tails are steered down the hill. Vice versatile doesn’t work as that would be rotating the edge into the hill.

A key is to maintain perpendicular alignment to the slope. If not, your feet will diverge through edge change and there may be a pause in rotation.

The steep slope is preferred as a flat slope risks an edge catch and face plant, at least until you’ve got mastery.

 

[Loki1]

From watching Bob Barnes and Jerry Berg's pivot slip drill video, it seems to me that there should be noedge release.

I assume that is why Bob Barnes wants us to use a relatively steep slope, a fast speed, and absolutely no mid-point stopping! All to prevent us from setting the uphill edges during the slip downhill.

So, that our hips are always moving downhill, we are always on a flat ski, so we never have to release the edge during this upper body lower body separation drill - ever.

Otherwise you can try an extension to release the edges, but at least when I do it, the release necessarily becomes sequential because when I extend the uphill leg I end up setting the downhill edge on my uphill ski. (I think I even saw some uphill ski push off in some of the edge releases in some of the videos.)

And wouldn't even a purely "legs up" retraction turn necessarily be sequential also, unless there is also some way to start the hips moving down the hill again?

The problem is extension/flexion do not cause a release of the edges. Many people talk about that being the cause but they don't understand the mechanics behind why those movements "seem" to release the edges. Go out and explore thsoe movements and try to figure out why they don't release the edges and you can then see what then releases the edges in pivot slips.

 

[Loki1]

I agree with you when you say we need to move the feet/legs first. But @Loki1, when you say "leading with the inside half ... leads to pelvis/hip rotation" I think leading... means the new inside hip moves ahead of the new outside hip, and I don't think of that as hip rotation. When the new outside hip rotates in the direction of the new turn, ahead of the skis, dragging them around, thus having the skier's hips pointing in the direction the skis are pointing, that's a problem, plus it's what I have known as "hip rotation." There is a confusion here as to what you are saying, at least in my mind.

Don't you want to see the new inside hip farther ahead in the turn, with the new outside hip back relative to it, and the upper body (including pelvis) pointing more downhill as the skis point to the side of the hill? Having the inside hip ahead and the outside hip back allows the skier to angulate over the outside ski in a natural way, directing pressures to the outside ski. Of course there are variations in the amount of such "counter" a skier needs in short, medium, and long radius turns.

You seem to be saying the opposite. Have I read you wrong? Maybe you are objecting to "countering" and "angulating" as a way to start a turn, doing it early, with the focus on the hip area, before doing anything with the feet/legs? This works to start a turn, but it leads to hip dump and park-n-ride. Maybe that's what you are warning against.

Would you mind clarifying?

Liquidfeet. I think we are mostly on the same page here. Lets look at a couple of things. First when people talk of the inside half "leading" through the turn, they mostly are talking about leading the turn with thier inside foot/knee. This is a form of femur rotation that causes hip rotation as the turn progresses. Many poeple feel it is really powerful but what thety are really feeling is hip rotation. The other way to think of things is more in line to what you are thinking. The inside hip leads through the turn. Which if you are steering and guiding your legs is 100% accurate. However this is a passive act. You don't "move" your inside hip first through the turn. It just looks like it because of the action of the femurs within the hip socket. So while it leads, it leads as a by product of the femur rotating in the hip socket, not the pelvis actively trying to lead.
I think this is the real difference in what I am trying to point out. While having a strong inside half is crucial to good skiing, Having an overactive inside half is just as detremental to good skiing. Knowing the differnece is key. The funny thing is the overactive one feels better! The strong one feels weak. Take a guess at which one most people try to do.

 

[Mike King]

The problem is extension/flexion do not cause a release of the edges. Many people talk about that being the cause but they don't understand the mechanics behind why those movements "seem" to release the edges. Go out and explore thsoe movements and try to figure out why they don't release the edges and you can then see what then releases the edges in pivot slips.

If you are balanced on the outside ski, then flexing the outside leg while stiffening the inside leg transfers the weight to the inside ski. As this is inside the outside leg, the body will topple over the inside leg and change the edge. Similar mechanics, but slower, for extension of the inside leg.

what am I missing?

 

[James]

I began teaching in what I would term as the Edge-to-Edge based system (Elan SCX parabolic skis) direct to parallel Skier's Edge era.

A while ago our trainer told me that I my rotary skill was lacking and he and others have suggested that I master pivot slips to build the rotary skill. So, yes I am proof that someone who has difficulty with pivot slips is lacking in some area . . . err, the rotary feet steering area.

This is the most interesting part of the pivot slip to me - the release:



From watching Bob Barnes and Jerry Berg's video, it seems to me that there should be no edge release.

I assume that is why Bob Barnes wants to use a relatively steep slope, a fast speed, and absolutely no mid-point stopping! All to prevent the student from setting the uphill edges during the slip downhill.

So, that your hips are always moving downhill, you are always on a flat ski, so you never have to release the edge during the drill - ever.

Otherwise you can try an extension to release the edges, but at least when I do it the release necessarily becomes sequential because when I extend I end up setting the downhill edge on my uphill ski. (I think I even saw some uphill ski push off in some of the edge releases in some of the videos.)

And wouldn't even a purely "legs up" retraction turn necessarily be sequential also, unless there is also some way to start the hips move down the hill again?

Your slipping the whole time. There’s a release to start at the very beginning. That’s it. The interesting thing is the skis are only flat when in the fall line, and different edges are in the snow when pivoting. When the skis pivot to the left, the left edges are in the snow, pointing to the right, the right edges are in. But the skis are slipping the whole time, so there’s no need to “release” them.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

For those "edgy" folks: Go do a bunch of sideslips and falling leafs on both steep pitches and flat pitches. Start with the steep and work your way down. When you can sideslip on beginner slope types of terrain, you will know how to stand on your skis for doing pivot slips.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Your slipping the whole time. There’s a release to start at the very beginning. That’s it. The interesting thing is the skis are only flat when in the fall line, and different edges are in the snow when pivoting. When the skis pivot to the left, the left edges are in the snow, pointing to the right, the right edges are in. But the skis are slipping the whole time, so there’s no need to “release” them.

I learned to do pivot slips out of a straight run.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....
This is the most interesting part of the pivot slip to me - the release:
From watching Bob Barnes and Jerry Berg's pivot slip drill video, it seems to me that there should be no edge release.....

Well, that's an interesting point. I think you're right.

You are saying that if you don't set an edge, you don't need a release. And not setting an edge in a pivot slip is a goal. Sure, why not?

To avoid setting that edge as the skis come around, one needs to do something specific.
We normally call it a release in a real turn, because in a turn we want grip and as the turn ends we need to let go of that grip. But not in a pivot slip - we need constant lack of grip. If a skier does that specific thing early enough in a pivot slip, and progressively enough, there will be no release.

The way to do a pivot slip to avoid setting that edge is to keep the CoM in the right place the whole time. When the skis are pointing downhill the CoM needs to be centered downhill, over the skis. When they pivot to point across the hill, the CoM needs to be between the feet, not uphill of both feet as often happens. Also one needs to keep the skis flat enough so they don't grip when they point across the slope. Keeping the CoM between the feet when the skis are pointing across the slope accomplishes both of these.

Letting the CoM get uphill of the feet as they point across the hill sets the edge and requires an extension release, or a flexion release, to get the CoM to cross over the skis. So not letting the CoM get uphill of the feet is the trick. So how does one do that?

Notice that as the skis point across the hill, there is tip lead because of the separation, and one foot is uphill of the other foot. When they point the other direction, there is tip lead again, but the opposite foot will have moved uphill. When pivoting the skis, if one pulls that downhill foot back uphill of the CoM as the skis rotate, the CoM will remain between the feet uphill-downhill-wise, and the task will be accomplished without a release. This is the magic move, the specific thing that will delete the need for a release - pull the downhill foot back uphill, so the CoM stays between the feet.

Pivot slips done this way can be very smooth and even quick. There will be no sticking point and no need to extend or flex to move the CoM downhill. The feet will have done all the moving.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

The way I see it there is still a release even if there isn't a set. There has to be an edge change. You can't truly do this drill on flat skis unless you have some insane convex ski with a 5 degree base bevel. You can't even side slip on a flat ski. Your body isn't stupid enough to let you try it twice.

 

[James]

I learned to do pivot slips out of a straight run.

Yes, so that means instead of a “release” one makes a non engaged edge set.

The way I see it there is still a release even if there isn't a set. There has to be an edge change.

How can there be a “release” of something that was never engaged? The edge is slipping the whole time. There’s a change of edges, different from a release as we usually think of the word in skiing.

 

[Chris V.]

How can there be a “release” of something that was never engaged?

In the sideslip phase, edges are never set to the critical angle or beyond, but they are still set to an angle substantially sharper than flat to the snow. Whether or not one chooses to call this "engaged," it's still an edge set that must be released to flatten the skis, which will be perfectly flat at the moment in the cycle when the skis are pointed straight down the fall line.

 

[LiquidFeet]

The way I see it there is still a release even if there isn't a set. There has to be an edge change. You can't truly do this drill on flat skis unless you have some insane convex ski with a 5 degree base bevel. You can't even side slip on a flat ski. Your body isn't stupid enough to let you try it twice.

Well, yes, there is an edge change. But it's not above the fall line.

In a pivot slip, the skis get onto their new edges after they pass the fall line. No release has to happen when they change from pointing down the fall line, flat on the snow, turn to pointing across the hill on their new edges. The new edges happen by virtue of the hill's pitch, and the skier manipulated the amount of edge by ankle action, knee placement, and CoM placement.

When they are pointed across the hill, the skis stay on flattening uphill edges until they are pointing down the fall line. That's when they are flat, pointing down the fall line. Was that a release? New edges, barely there new edges, happen after the fall line as the skis pivot across the hill. No edge set is required at all, nor wanted.

But that edge set is created by many folks doing pivot slips as they slide downhill with skis pointed across the snow because they learn pivot slips in a progression that involves modifying linked hockey stops, and they put their CoM uphill of both skis/feet to do those hockey stops. If there's an edge set, then a release is necessary to allow the pivot downhill to start.

 

[Tim Hodgson]

When pivoting the skis, if one pulls that downhill foot back uphill of the CoM as the skis rotate, the CoM will remain between the feet uphill-downhill-wise, and the task will be accomplished without a release. This is the magic move, the specific thing that will delete the need for a release - pull the downhill foot back uphill, so the CoM stays between the feet.

Pivot slips done this way can be very smooth and even quick. There will be no sticking point and no need to extend or flex to move the CoM downhill. The feet will have done all the moving.

Well, yes, there is an edge change. But it's not above the fall line.

In a pivot slip, the skis get onto their new edges after they pass the fall line. No release has to happen when they change from pointing down the fall line to pointing across the hill on their new edges.

When they are pointed across the hill, the skis stay on flattening uphill edges until they are pointing down the fall line. That's when they are flat, pointing down the fall line. Was that a release? New edges, barely there new edges, happen after the fall line as the skis pivot across the hill. No edge set is required at all, nor wanted.

But that edge set happens for many folks doing pivot slips because they learn pivot slips in a progression that involves modifying linked hockey stops, and they put their CoM uphill of both skis/feet to do those hockey stops. If there's an edge set, then a release is necessary to allow the pivot downhill to start.

Well LiquidFeet, you are even more brillianter than I remember.

I will work on my pivot slips tomorrow with your advice in mind.

 

[Erik Timmerman]

There may not be an edge set, but there is still a release. All of the people that are doing sequential leg movements are "releasing" one ski more than the other.

 

[LiquidFeet]

There may not be an edge set, but there is still a release. All of the people that are doing sequential leg movements are "releasing" one ski more than the other.

Good point. They set an edge by pushing out on that downhill ski, sending it downhill, and probably allowing their CoM to get above the uphill foot as well. Hockey-stop stuff. But they didn't have to do that.

 

[karlo]

I like the second one. In the first, the demonstrator's COM goes a bit side to side, so there's a turn component in the pivot. In the second, the COM travels in a straight line.

I change my vote. I like those in the first video better. In the second, too much of the rotation is coming from the spine, resulting in the torso and shoulders rotating.