Clever!
Also, some folk with poor balance skills benefit from the more stable wedge platform, when first learning to ski.
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Pinkie Leads the Way (learning to ski on shaped skis)
Also, some folk with poor balance skills benefit from the more stable wedge platform, when first learning to ski.
This is a confused thread with some very knowledgeable posts. Some posters are feeling the elephant's trunk. I.e., Sandy seems to be excited about and talking about carving turns. And those who are talking about Lito's flat ski guided or steered technique (I call them rotated turns) are feeling the elephant's leg.
For about 15 years, in my personal skiing (and unfortunately it also influenced my teaching) I got excited by skiing edge lock to edge lock (i.e., using the ski's side-cut and pressure/edge skills to turn).
Sandy is this what you are excited about? It is shown beautifully by helluvaskier, Jonathan Ballou, and Reilly McGlashan.
I never really could ski well on straight skis. Sandy has already been there done that and is over that. I on the other hand, am now totally enthralled about the flatter guided ski turn espoused/demoed and by taught by Lito.
Both techniques are correct.
Lito's technique will make my tree skiing safer and my bump skiing much much much better.
There is a reason why bump skiers ski on the very little side cut Dynastar Twister.
It is designed to flat ski "twist," instead of pressure/edge carving.
Here's the conversation yesterday when I ordered all three Breakthrough DVD's via PayPal (though the website: BreakthroughOnSkis.com)
"Lito:
I am a weekend ski instructor PSIA Level II and just was awarded my 20-year PSIA pin and I still can't ski bumps.
When I was hired at Kirkwood in 1997 I got intrigued by the new shaped skis and started carving. And I now realize that I am totally held back by the fact that I cannot do a proper brushed short turn.
I understand that the first of these two videos are pre-shaped skis. And that is perfect, because I want to learn the "old school" brushed/skidded/flatter-guided ski technique.
And that is why your videos should come back into vogue because they will focus on that flat guided ski turn.
BTW, Juris Vagners recommended that I read your books, and I am doing that.
But a bump skier recommended that I watch your Breakthrough on Skis II Bumps and Powder
Which my wife and I did last night (via youtube) and I was simply blown away.
I am totally missing the technique you describe and depict. For a lot of the moves, you demo a static, a traverse and then blend into a dynamic of the movement. That will help me learn, because that is how I teach, and once I learn to ski bumps, it will help me better teach them.
Your video is simply the best instructional video I have ever seen!
Tim Hodgson"
And here is Lito's response:
"HI Tim,
Thanks for your email and your kind words. They mean a lot!
Making friends with bumps is really a big deal, the idea isn’t to pound them into submission but ski them smoothly, gracefully, and above all, easily. You can do it!
All the best, Lito"
For about 15 years, in my personal skiing (and unfortunately it also influenced my teaching) I got excited by skiing edge lock to edge lock (i.e., using the ski's side-cut and pressure/edge skills to turn).
Sandy is this what you are excited about? It is shown beautifully by helluvaskier, Jonathan Ballou, and Reilly McGlashan.
I never really could ski well on straight skis. Sandy has already been there done that and is over that. I on the other hand, am now totally enthralled about the flatter guided ski turn espoused/demoed and by taught by Lito.
Both techniques are correct.
Lito's technique will make my tree skiing safer and my bump skiing much much much better.
There is a reason why bump skiers ski on the very little side cut Dynastar Twister.
It is designed to flat ski "twist," instead of pressure/edge carving.
Here's the conversation yesterday when I ordered all three Breakthrough DVD's via PayPal (though the website: BreakthroughOnSkis.com)
"Lito:
I am a weekend ski instructor PSIA Level II and just was awarded my 20-year PSIA pin and I still can't ski bumps.
When I was hired at Kirkwood in 1997 I got intrigued by the new shaped skis and started carving. And I now realize that I am totally held back by the fact that I cannot do a proper brushed short turn.
I understand that the first of these two videos are pre-shaped skis. And that is perfect, because I want to learn the "old school" brushed/skidded/flatter-guided ski technique.
And that is why your videos should come back into vogue because they will focus on that flat guided ski turn.
BTW, Juris Vagners recommended that I read your books, and I am doing that.
But a bump skier recommended that I watch your Breakthrough on Skis II Bumps and Powder
Which my wife and I did last night (via youtube) and I was simply blown away.
I am totally missing the technique you describe and depict. For a lot of the moves, you demo a static, a traverse and then blend into a dynamic of the movement. That will help me learn, because that is how I teach, and once I learn to ski bumps, it will help me better teach them.
Your video is simply the best instructional video I have ever seen!
Tim Hodgson"
And here is Lito's response:
"HI Tim,
Thanks for your email and your kind words. They mean a lot!
Making friends with bumps is really a big deal, the idea isn’t to pound them into submission but ski them smoothly, gracefully, and above all, easily. You can do it!
All the best, Lito"
Tim, bravo on your search! If I recall, in the past you expressed a great deal of frustration with PSIA, instruction, etc... In the end it's about versatility.
Per the rest of the conversation, IMHO, and given the terrain we have locally, like Kneale alludes to, I don't have any trouble teaching a wedge/gliding wedge/ etc... So long as they're properly coached, they (movements started with the feet/tipping/steering, speed control via turn shape rather than braking, etc...) aren't antithetical to high performance arc'd turns. Speaking only for myself, skiing is never a 'this way or the highway' experience and for all mountain skiing, really can't be if one skis the entire gamut of terrain and conditions. Versatility = tactical choices, which loops back to Tim's epiphany. To be versatile, one has to be in dynamic balance, which connects us back to thoughts about Sandy's posts.
Per the rest of the conversation, IMHO, and given the terrain we have locally, like Kneale alludes to, I don't have any trouble teaching a wedge/gliding wedge/ etc... So long as they're properly coached, they (movements started with the feet/tipping/steering, speed control via turn shape rather than braking, etc...) aren't antithetical to high performance arc'd turns. Speaking only for myself, skiing is never a 'this way or the highway' experience and for all mountain skiing, really can't be if one skis the entire gamut of terrain and conditions. Versatility = tactical choices, which loops back to Tim's epiphany. To be versatile, one has to be in dynamic balance, which connects us back to thoughts about Sandy's posts.
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How about speed control through line? That is the basis of good skiing. If people can get over the 1-2 second feeling of falling or accelerating as they turn downhill, and instead of panicking and throwing on the brakes, glide around the turn and head uphill, they will be well on their way. Gentle terrain is the key, but unfortunately many beginner areas are too steep.
Mentioned in the post above yours as well: "So long as they're properly coached, (movements started with the feet/tipping/steering, speed control via turn shape rather than braking, etc..."
FWIW, if we can get people straight to parallel, fantastic!
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Doesn't Lito teach expert carved turns and also teach turns with some steering? It sounds like you're saying Lito's technique is not carving, but much of his videos are about carving with Harold Harb and others giving excellent demonstrations. There are times that Lito talks about steering to make a tighter turn, but I don't think that defines his technique.
skier: No I would never attempt to "define" Lito's technique as one thing or another. No doubt he is a master instructor of all techniques.
What I am talking about is what our resort trainer and even (Donald Duran aka JustAnotherSkiPro on epicski.com) said was missing in my personal skiing and what - until last season and the season before - was deficient in my teaching - i.e., Rotation.
I bought all three of Lito's Breakthrough on Skis DVD's and no. III which you post above is about carving on the "new" skis. I will watch it, but I am actually more interested in the no. II which is Bumps and Powder which I have watched in its entirety and in which I can definitely say that carving is not Lito's emphasis. I am also interested n the Beginning DVD no., I because I have no doubt that Lito has put nuggets in there to use in my own teaching.
Sandy: Good On' Ya' Girl! That technical skiing - carving - is thrilling. Go for what personally stokes you! Thank you for starting this thread.
I am afraid to restate something I learned about the carved turn transition on this forum from Magi (because I might get it wrong) but I was doing wrong in carved turn transitions by pressuring the edge of the inside/uphill-new-to-be-outside ski (rather than its shovel and then rolling it onto edge "as a natural result" -- because pushing off that uphill ski edge takes pressure off of it (cambering it off its arc) while edging early (and depressuring) the inside/downhill ski moves pressure to the inside/uphill-new-to-be-outside ski. So, in essence: "Pinky leads the way." I hope Magi joins in this thread, because he is just done studying for his Level III and he will likely not only agree with you but be able to refine what you and others have said about carved turn transitions...
What I am talking about is what our resort trainer and even (Donald Duran aka JustAnotherSkiPro on epicski.com) said was missing in my personal skiing and what - until last season and the season before - was deficient in my teaching - i.e., Rotation.
I bought all three of Lito's Breakthrough on Skis DVD's and no. III which you post above is about carving on the "new" skis. I will watch it, but I am actually more interested in the no. II which is Bumps and Powder which I have watched in its entirety and in which I can definitely say that carving is not Lito's emphasis. I am also interested n the Beginning DVD no., I because I have no doubt that Lito has put nuggets in there to use in my own teaching.
Sandy: Good On' Ya' Girl! That technical skiing - carving - is thrilling. Go for what personally stokes you! Thank you for starting this thread.
I am afraid to restate something I learned about the carved turn transition on this forum from Magi (because I might get it wrong) but I was doing wrong in carved turn transitions by pressuring the edge of the inside/uphill-new-to-be-outside ski (rather than its shovel and then rolling it onto edge "as a natural result" -- because pushing off that uphill ski edge takes pressure off of it (cambering it off its arc) while edging early (and depressuring) the inside/downhill ski moves pressure to the inside/uphill-new-to-be-outside ski. So, in essence: "Pinky leads the way." I hope Magi joins in this thread, because he is just done studying for his Level III and he will likely not only agree with you but be able to refine what you and others have said about carved turn transitions...
My interpretation of Lito’s teaching is the opposite of a “flat and steered” ski. He advocates lightening the new inside ski to engage the side cut to turn the ski, flexing to release and balancing on the outside ski.
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If you start the turn parallel, there's no matching involved.
@Sandy Powell
I skied straight skis for well over 45 years and only switched to shaped skis relatively recently. The technique required for either is very similar with the primary difference being timing of certain actions. Some are delayed others accelerated. The second is there are a few actions that on straights were a No No and on shaped well....par for the course.
If you A framed on straights you will definitely A frame on shaped skis. Bad habits are bad habits.
My suggestion is you think more about how all the skills set are learned vs how high edge angles are achieved. When you have all the simple skills the complex ones just fall into place as all they really are is simple one just pushed to the extreme.
I skied straight skis for well over 45 years and only switched to shaped skis relatively recently. The technique required for either is very similar with the primary difference being timing of certain actions. Some are delayed others accelerated. The second is there are a few actions that on straights were a No No and on shaped well....par for the course.
If you A framed on straights you will definitely A frame on shaped skis. Bad habits are bad habits.
My suggestion is you think more about how all the skills set are learned vs how high edge angles are achieved. When you have all the simple skills the complex ones just fall into place as all they really are is simple one just pushed to the extreme.
Thread Starter
TS
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Yes I love skiing pure edge lock with deep carving on ice. With that stated I understand the reason and purpose for the Lito turn and skidded turns. They all have their time and place. It's good to have a mixed set of skills and understand the inputs behind every style. So I am not saying that any one style doesn't have its purpose. Ironically enough they all require tipping both skis at least equally to not be in A frame. The Lito turn would be a good all day low energy, low impact turn for huge resorts. Edge lock to edge lock requires a high energy, high speed and high impact.
What my desired outcome is a deep high angle turn like that of JF or Jonathan Ballou. I find that skidded turns require less technical knowledge and input to create those outcomes. What we do naturally for daily turns has to amplified for larger motions. It's possible I didn't A frame ever till I started trying to get larger angles (but probably did). Then things that came naturally have to be pushed in every motion. The other odd thing is that skiing on flatter surfaces at slow speeds would show me things about my skiing which where masked by steep terrain. The other odd thing is that drills like railroad tracks have always been easy.
What I really find interesting is JF discussion about letting gravity drop you into the inside edge as you maintain balance over the outside. I am going to play with that more tomorrow
.I skied on straight skis for a very long time as well. Also was lifting the inside ski every time to force the outside to carve. This masked the need to tip the inside ski. I agree with you that both have some of the similar concepts and would have been A framing old skis as well. It was something I noticed on slower slopes sometimes things with my skiing would fall apart only slightly.
I am not sure on this either way. We only get people for a one hour lesson most of the time. That's not much time to introduce them to skiing. Our beginner hill is very small so on the one hand it's nice to get them to ski at all. When they start tipping the feet right away it's just not something I discourage. When working with beginners we always start from boot work. I always show tipping, wedges, and forward pressure when doing boot work and explain that we don't want upper body motion. So if they tip when skiing I don't stop them and ask them to wedge. As far as how much control they have I would agree they if they don't understand how to skid. Some of them do however because they are used to hockey stops. It really depends on the person. Are they less suited then to ski on a hill as someone that can wedge? I don't know on that.
Sandy, I think you missed the point on A Framing, if you have a have a bad habit and done it for a long time it takes a long time to get rid of. In my case I stopped A Framing in the late 70’s as it hindered fully weighting the outside edge (slightly different than what’s required today).Yes I love skiing pure edge lock with deep carving on ice. With that stated I understand the reason and purpose for the Lito turn and skidded turns. They all have their time and place. It's good to have a mixed set of skills and understand the inputs behind every style. So I am not saying that any one style doesn't have its purpose. Ironically enough they all require tipping both skis at least equally to not be in A frame. The Lito turn would be a good all day low energy, low impact turn for huge resorts. Edge lock to edge lock requires a high energy, high speed and high impact.
What my desired outcome is a deep high angle turn like that of JF or Jonathan Ballou. I find that skidded turns require less technical knowledge and input to create those outcomes. What we do naturally for daily turns has to amplified for larger motions. It's possible I didn't A frame ever till I started trying to get larger angles (but probably did). Then things that came naturally have to be pushed in every motion. The other odd thing is that skiing on flatter surfaces at slow speeds would show me things about my skiing which where masked by steep terrain. The other odd thing is that drills like railroad tracks have always been easy.
What I really find interesting is JF discussion about letting gravity drop you into the inside edge as you maintain balance over the outside. I am going to play with that more tomorrow
I skied on straight skis for a very long time as well. Also was lifting the inside ski every time to force the outside to carve. This masked the need to tip the inside ski. I agree with you that both have some of the similar concepts and would have been A framing old skis as well. It was something I noticed on slower slopes sometimes things with my skiing would fall apart only slightly.
I am not sure on this either way. We only get people for a one hour lesson most of the time. That's not much time to introduce them to skiing. Our beginner hill is very small so on the one hand it's nice to get them to ski at all. When they start tipping the feet right away it's just not something I discourage. When working with beginners we always start from boot work. I always show tipping, wedges, and forward pressure when doing boot work and explain that we don't want upper body motion. So if they tip when skiing I don't stop them and ask them to wedge. As far as how much control they have I would agree they if they don't understand how to skid. Some of them do however because they are used to hockey stops. It really depends on the person. Are they less suited then to ski on a hill as someone that can wedge? I don't know on that.
Looking at your avatar it seems that you hip dump which is a new bad habit. Look at your avatar and the photo you posted re high edge angles. His hip is low but up and rotated in and over, yours is down. Again this is a carry over of A Frame balancing.
Hopefully this makes sense. As mentioned by other the simple skills of balance and body positioning play a big role in how the skis perform. I leave that to the better educated and experienced instructors (@Josh Matta @Kneale Brownson and others) to describe the what and how..
... And he wouldn't on modern gear
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Yes, but...They're talking about "bad habits" 40 yrs ago. Stenmark was very, very, bad based on that.
Stenmark A-Framed. He was pretty good, no?
And...omg, he lifted the inside ski off the snow! Total hack.
Random Stenmark race.
Dec, 1985 - Alta Badia, GS
A-frame with all the weight on the outside ski might not cause nearly the same problems as A-frame with weight on the inside ski as in Sandy's case. The closest thing to perfect carving is on one ski. Two skis ride different arcs. One of those skis has to skid. To keep the inside ski from skidding it either has to be lifted or tipped more than the outside ski. Tipping more would lead to some funny bow legged skiing. Isn't tipping less the A-frame look which means the inside ski is skidding even more than normal besides other problems?
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Where's this picture of Sandy weight on inside ski and a-framing? Guess I missed that. But, yes I agree.
What I don't get is the self flagellation for a-framing in an era when the top gs skier in the world was doing exactly that.
A framing was the mark of a good skier at one time during straight skis as I remember it. But I could be wrong about that since I never really followed technique back then. Oh wait, Stenmark.
Not at all. The inside ski should have around 30% of the pressure. Here is how I see the order: Shift your hips over the new outside ski, start shortening the inside leg and actively tip it at the same time. Push that inside leg toward the hill as far as you want to generate larger angles. Aft and forward pressure are managed based on snow conditions and not a rule of always be forward. When going through powder, slush less than desirable conditions you have a more central body position.
Also for the record I understand that we are all taught somewhat basic steps on tipping the inside ski. I am not talking about getting out of a wedge. Everything that I have heard has always talked rolling the inside foot out to get out of a wedge. Then it's not really mentioned at a high level again as most people focus on forward pressure and the downhill ski. It's almost as if the inside foot becomes an after thought and what I am saying is that it's key. In order to shorten that leg you have to transfer weight. You need to have proper hip alignment to tip that inside ski and shorten it. Everything in that focus is not outside ski, but how to shorten and tip the inside. If you are trying tip any other way your body ends up leaning. If your focus is not tipping the inside you end up with an A frame. It might not be revolutionary to new skiers since they are taught to roll to get out of a wedge, but it is to me.
I watched Lito Tejada-Flores and couldn't even get past 10 min. His skiing is the exact opposite of what I am trying to achieve. He might say some of the right things, but what I saw in his skiing was wrong. He is rolling the inside foot only because his skis are two inches apart and he is leaning with his body. He has no separation of his upper body and what makes it worse with too much rotary motion. That is not at all what I am looking to emulate. Look up JF Beaulieu or Jonathan Ballou, but they still don't mention the inside ski.
When I am talking about rolling the inside leg I am talking about generating large angles like this:
Regardless of the thread intent, this photo does not represent "pleasurable recreation on the ski slopes" to me. Nothing I would try to emulate on any given day on the mountain. (I may be a soft snow guy, if....)
Granted, I would ski that way for a turn or two on a bet, or if I were paid, but such extremes, even in example just don't do a thing for me.
Well, maybe in a dream world. ;-)
Thread Starter
TS
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You could be right on both accounts, but the avatar was not me trying to tip from the inside. That was an old image from a video a few years ago, maybe last year. It was obvious to me as well looking at tracks how much I was letting the inside skid around. I have not put down a video yet of my skiing this year. I hope to get one tomorrow and hope to see some improvement. My goal in the past has never been to tip the inside ski as my goal has always been what happens to the outside ski. Still I know it's going to take time to change. Luckily for me I can ski in the summer too. I have a membership to an indoor skiing place here.
Actually I don't have as much weight on the inside as you think. Most of the time the inside ski for me has been lifted or off the snow enough that I don't feel like it's A frame. The outside ski is always carved perfect and then on the inside right in the mid of it you can see it's skidded on a few turns. The problem with this is how much extra effort and strength goes into that to carve. Also as was mentioned hip alignment issues which stress the back more than it should. Another side effect is that you end up going edge to edge without anything flat in transition. So that makes it slower as you don't get a release in the transition.
LOL oldschoolskier... Yes I know the photo was a bit extreme. Just trying to get the point across about how much that pinky toe would have to lead to get to that point. I'd love to be able to do something to that extreme but not a every turn sort of thing for sure. Another photo I loved was one of Ted free skiing in powder with his fist dragging in the snow. I'll have to find that.
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Thread Starter
TS
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