Pinkie Leads the Way (learning to ski on shaped skis)

[LiquidFeet]

"Breakthrough on skis" was inspirational for me, even though in hindsight I didn't absorb all that much of what he was teaching.
"Breakthrough on the new skis" was an update written after shaped skis became popular.

.... So, as someone who's read them, what are your thoughts on Harb's PMTS compared to Lito's methods?

There's a third more recent book by Lito, Soft Skiing. Lito's goal has always been to make decent skiing easy to learn for recreational skiers. Harb's goal has always been to make expert skiers, and he does not try to make it easy to get there because he's a stickler for perfection. He runs camps and posts free how-to videos, makes targeted instructional videos that are cheap to buy, runs a forum just for his adherents, sells his three major how-to-ski books plus an instructor training manual and a boot fitting manual from his website, owns a ski shop, and teaches and certifies his own instructors. He's deep into bootfitting. He creates new terms for the movements he teaches and uses those terms in a proprietary way to distinguish his instructional system from mainstream instruction. Harb ridicules mainstream ski instruction in general, PSIA leadership in particular, the skiing skills of the PSIA Demo Team, and all PSIA instructors, plus all instruction across the globe that does not follow his way of teaching. So do his followers. This ridicule is quite present on his forum, but mixed in with that is lots of detailed and informative technical talk. His forum is kept totally consistent by the moderators. Alternative approaches to skiing and teaching are not permitted.

Lito taught skiing and wrote three or four books. He may have done more than that, but I think he's aged out now.

These two guys were friends at one time, when Harb had not withdrawn so far from mainstream ski instruction. I got the impression from reading Breakthrough on the New Skis that Lito was responsible for the "phantom move" concept. Not sure if Harb is claiming it as his creation or not.

*I edited this several times for clarity.

 

[speedster]

There's a third more recent book by Lito, Soft Skiing. Lito's goal has always been to make decent skiing easy to learn for recreational skiers. Harb's goal has always been to make expert skiers, and he does not try to make it easy to get there because he's a stickler for perfection. He runs camps and posts free how-to videos, makes more instructional videos that are cheap to buy, runs a forum just for his adherents, sells his three major how-to-ski books plus an instructor training manual and a boot fitting manual from his website, owns a ski shop, and teaches and certifies his own instructors. He's deep into bootfitting. He creates new terms for the movements he teaches and uses those terms in a proprietary way to distinguish his instructional system from mainstream instruction. Harb ridicules mainstream ski instruction in general, PSIA leadership, the skiing skills of the PSIA Demo Team, and all PSIA instructors, plus all instruction that does not follow his way of teaching. So do his followers. This ridicule is quite present on his forum, but mixed in with that is lots of detailed and informative technical talk. His forum is kept totally consistent by the moderators. Alternative approaches to skiing and teaching are not permitted.

Lito taught skiing and wrote three books. He may have done more than that, but I think he's aged out now.

These two guys were friends at one time, when Harb had not withdrawn so far from mainstream ski instruction. I got the impression from reading Breakthrough on the New Skis that Lito was responsible for the "phantom move" concept. Not sure if Harb is claiming it as his creation or not.

*I edited this several times for clarity.

That's quite informative! Have you noticed significant differences in techniques between PMTS and Lito's though? Or is it that they both teach the same essential movements, but Harb goes into much more detail, breaking down the steps more?

 

[LiquidFeet]

Stuck in a wedge? Get mad at whomever taught the wedge in the first place. There is no reason at all to teach a sliding wedge, stem christie, etc., to any learning skier on modern equipment. Teach them the snowplow wedge to safely stop in a lift line, then have them begin making basic parallel turns by the afternoon of their first day. It works with no problem. They discover the wedge christie and pass through it to a parallel before they ever get a christie habit, therefore the bad habit never forms. Do not teach anything that has to be un-learned.

What if you had to teach a group of 8 beginner adults to ski parallel from the start in a 1.5 hour learn-to-ski-lesson on unfriendly "beginner" terrain that offers absolutely no other way to glide to a non-wedged stop in their first straight run -- short of running into a fence? Assume they all are in boots too big, please, because this is reality. The wedge is absolutely required in that situation, if they are to make a straight run. Otherwise, they hit the fence and the lesson is over; everyone is freaked out and dysfunctional from fear. Take into account that this first straight run is through dense traffic in front of the lodge. The fence in question has everyone's skis leaning on it.

The other option is to start them moving with a traverse across the beginner hill. But what if that first traverse has to be through heavy traffic? And all the next traverses as well? What if one of them can't hold their very first traverse because their boots are floppy on their feet, and there is no flat runout there either? If they lose their grip, they will go fast into the trees on one side or the parking lot on the other, OR turn and speed downhill all the way to Vermont. They are adults so they can plainly envision this danger before setting off on that adventurous traverse. How much trust are they going to have in you the instructor if you ask them to do this? Through heavy traffic? Fear will destroy their willingness to ever get those skis to point downhill on that trail, if you start them with a traverse. Let's say they all succeed in holding the traverse, and in gliding uphill to a stop. Now let's teach them to go downhill. They have absolutely no confidence that once the skis point downhill, they will be able to slow down or stop, because, well, they don't have the wedge. It's miles and miles downhill in their minds as they gaze into the abyss of that beginner hill, which keeps going down forever and ends with trees that don't move.

I know using the wedge with beginners often requires teaching bad habits on day one just to get the job done, especially when time is limited. Terrain, traffic, and time constraints can overrule good pedagogy.

My point is that there are reasons to teach the wedge, even the braking wedge. Blame mountain management.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@speedster, I recently got the 3rd Lito book and read it in one night; easy reading. It was the same stuff he described in the Breakthrough books, but more simply and briefly described. Harb's stuff is more detailed and addresses advanced skiing.

 

[speedster]

@speedster, I recently got the 3rd Lito book and read it in one night; easy reading. It was the same stuff he described in the Breakthrough books, but more simply and briefly described. Harb's stuff is more detailed and addresses advanced skiing.

Yes, I know that book! I've leafed through his works enough to know that almost everything is covered in the main book. He's like Walt Whitman, who wrote one book (Leaves of Grass), but updated it throughout his life. But anyway, would you mind expounding a bit on what you mean by advanced skiing here? In other words, what does PMTS teach that you can't quite get from skiing the way Lito says to ski in his main book?

I'm pretty much a piste skier, and enjoy fast, steep blues and blacks. I wonder if there will be value in learning PMTS (although I'd still worry if I'll start "thinking" more on the slopes once I learn a new system, and stop enjoying myself out there as much).

 

[LiquidFeet]

I'll let someone else answer that. Gotta go get something useful done.

 

[Sandy Powell]

Did Lito chronicle in his film below PMTS in its infancy at 21:29? Lito's techniques seem similar to Harb's, just Harb skis more aggressively for greater edge angles. I think you'd have a hard time criticizing Harb's skiing in Lito's video below. I don't think high edge angles are Lito's goals. There are many other great skiers that don't talk about focusing on initiating the turn with the inside ski, but yet their skiing is marvelous.

You are quite correct. He did mention the infancy of the movement that I am talking about at 21:29. Although with shaped skis you no longer have to lift the ski and I am wonder if you lose speed in your transition doing that.

JF describes it as the inside being the Decider, and the outside as the Rider. Not sure I agree with your movement pattern to initiate a turn, moving the hip over the new outside ski. Did you mean something else?

I have not seen this video at all and watched a lot of his. I even purchased both the Project Hintertux and Project Kitzsteinhorn. Both those videos have lots of great advice, but I have never heard him talking about the inside being the decider. {had to edit} I am just watching Project Hintertux again and your right. He clearly states that he lets the inside decide the angle of attack and direction while keeping his balance on the outside ski... Wish I had caught that before!

As far as hip motion this is something that an instructor told me at the Alpine Factory. I don't know if that is correct, but I know you have to transfer weight which then creates a shift in the hips. Again I am not clear on what he meant either. I just know that starting from the feet up you would get a shift in hips and weight.

Saying something like "put 30% of the weight on the inside ski" is pointless. How does one measure 30% of the forces--gravity plus centrifugal force? It can't be measured nor estimated with any accuracy or consistency, therefore it's pointless and perhaps confusing to suggest it.

For stance width, how about this--how about walking width? Our bodies have been balancing us on one foot at a time every step we take since we were a year or two old. That's what our bodies know--don't mess with Mother Nature.

Stuck in a wedge? Get mad at whomever taught the wedge in the first place. There is no reason at all to teach a sliding wedge, stem christie, etc., to any learning skier on modern equipment. Teach them the snowplow wedge to safely stop in a lift line, then have them begin making basic parallel turns by the afternoon of their first day.

Yes my point is that you don't need to take the weight off the ski. I know another person stated they put 0% on the inside. That could be masking issues. It's not till your knee deep in powder that you realize omg I don't know how to turn with my feet on the ground.

Width, yes something natural to you. We talk about jumping in place and getting to a natural stance where your feet fall naturally. Your right don't mess with nature.

I hate wedges and your right. By teaching a wedge you then have to teach later what to do with that inside knee. You have to unlearn how to wedge. I have had several new skiers that come from ice skating. It's far more natural to them to just ski. If they can turn naturally I don't mess with it. If they are scared and going too fast I teach them how to wedge. A wedge control's speed very well. The first time you get a young child on the slope that's afraid you have to teach them how to control speed. We have two approaches to skiing one as straight to parallel and the other as wedge skiing. I don't as a standard practice only teach how wedge and I get flak for it.

 

[Jilly]

I said turn, and I should have said "steer". If you just put the ski on edge, then all you're doing is riding the side cut. Steering will direct the ski in the direction you want to go.

 

[mdf]

JF describes it as the inside being the Decider, and the outside as the Rider.

I've also heard "Ride ski and Guide ski." I would also point out that if you pay attention to the inside ski then the outside ski will "auto-magically" do the right thing.
(In the context of a new pattern for a heel pusher -- refinement comes later.)

 

[markojp]

To me having feet two inches apart where boots are touching is too close.

Leaning with the body and not having separation at the hips is not When I am using that I mean actively engaging your knee to the inside toward the hill.



Liquid, yep that is my point PSIA doesn't promote anything to focus on the inside ski. I think that is sort of a failure in some regards.

I am in Minneapolis.

A couple thoughts...

Stance width... Even 2" can be fine if tactically appropriate. WC SL'ers are there nearly every turn.

Think 'actively engage the lateral side of the inside foot' rather than knee.

PSIA in our region actively does talk about engaging the inside ski. Your region may vary.

 

[skier]

You are quite correct. He did mention the infancy of the movement that I am talking about at 21:29. Although with shaped skis you no longer have to lift the ski and I am wonder if you lose speed in your transition doing that.

I don't think you do lose speed, and I say this because I can point you to some top level racers that talk about lifting the inside ski.

 

[karlo]

As far as hip motion this is something that an instructor told me at the Alpine Factory. I don't know if that is correct, but I know you have to transfer weight which then creates a shift in the hips.

Now, me too. I'm not sure about the hip. For sure a transfer of weight or pressure to the soon to be new outside ski is something JF talks about in Project Hintertux, as does JB I think in Zillertal. Me, I think of it happening as a result of flexing the soon to be old outside leg and just starting to move my COM downhill. I suppose that results in the hip moving from the inside of the old turn towards what will be the outside ski. I just don't think of it that way. Anyway, for sure, the inside ski being the "decider" is, I think, pretty important.

 

[Josh Matta]

You are quite correct. He did mention the infancy of the movement that I am talking about at 21:29. Although with shaped skis you no longer have to lift the ski and I am wonder if you lose speed in your transition doing that.



I have not seen this video at all and watched a lot of his. I even purchased both the Project Hintertux and Project Kitzsteinhorn. Both those videos have lots of great advice, but I have never heard him talking about the inside being the decider. {had to edit} I am just watching Project Hintertux again and your right. He clearly states that he lets the inside decide the angle of attack and direction while keeping his balance on the outside ski... Wish I had caught that before!

As far as hip motion this is something that an instructor told me at the Alpine Factory. I don't know if that is correct, but I know you have to transfer weight which then creates a shift in the hips. Again I am not clear on what he meant either. I just know that starting from the feet up you would get a shift in hips and weight.




Yes my point is that you don't need to take the weight off the ski. I know another person stated they put 0% on the inside. That could be masking issues. It's not till your knee deep in powder that you realize omg I don't know how to turn with my feet on the ground.

Width, yes something natural to you. We talk about jumping in place and getting to a natural stance where your feet fall naturally. Your right don't mess with nature.

I hate wedges and your right. By teaching a wedge you then have to teach later what to do with that inside knee. You have to unlearn how to wedge. I have had several new skiers that come from ice skating. It's far more natural to them to just ski. If they can turn naturally I don't mess with it. If they are scared and going too fast I teach them how to wedge. A wedge control's speed very well. The first time you get a young child on the slope that's afraid you have to teach them how to control speed. We have two approaches to skiing one as straight to parallel and the other as wedge skiing. I don't as a standard practice only teach how wedge and I get flak for it.

what issues could no weight on inside ski be masking? Why wouldnt zero percent on inside ski work in powder? why shouldnt we take weight off the ski?

I am the guy in the yellow jacket, and I am basically lifting up my inside ski every turn I every do at least that is how I perceive it.




also your missing the point on why we teach a wedge, so is PTskier. Speed control is great and everything but that ISNT the reason we teach a wedge. If you can name it you show some true understanding.

 

[James]

"Left tip left to turn left"
There's your pinkie issue if you use 'tip' as noun and verb.

JF describes it as the inside being the Decider, and the outside as the Rider

Yes, that's because it sounds good in a French accent. If he said guide and ride you would think he was mumbling. I thought our minds were deciding where to go. But I'll take it.

 

[François Pugh]

Yes, I know that book! I've leafed through his works enough to know that almost everything is covered in the main book. He's like Walt Whitman, who wrote one book (Leaves of Grass), but updated it throughout his life. But anyway, would you mind expounding a bit on what you mean by advanced skiing here? In other words, what does PMTS teach that you can't quite get from skiing the way Lito says to ski in his main book?

I'm pretty much a piste skier, and enjoy fast, steep blues and blacks. I wonder if there will be value in learning PMTS (although I'd still worry if I'll start "thinking" more on the slopes once I learn a new system, and stop enjoying myself out there as much).

I think you could probably benefit from reading the books. A few years ago when I had some spare time, I borrowed three of the PMTS books from the library and read them. I do not cosider the time wasted; there is a lot of good stuff in there. It's a pretty easy to understand, well put together system for learning to ski. So much so in fact that I bought a copy of the first book as a present for someone to advance their skiing with. It's not perfect. If you are already tipping both skis properly and are one of those folk who do exactly as you are told, you will find yourself tripping over your inside ski's little toe edge as you stretch all your ligaments and joints to ONLY tip the inside ski for example.

For more advanced skiers there are other things that you will need to do and explore than what I read in those books. I'm sure if you followed the system, went to the camps and paid for your lessons you would get instruction on those other things. I stand to be corrected, but if I'm not mistaken PMTS played a part in the development of this skier https://www.pugski.com/threads/new-technical-skiing-video.9630/
@HeluvaSkier , correct me if I'm wrong.

You can pick up these things elsewhere too.

The reason emphasis on tipping the inside ski works is that most folk are far better at tippng the outside ski; they need to develop their ability to tip that inside ski -muscles that do that are also weaker.

Really, IMHO, both skis need to be tipped to the right angle and pressured so that each ski does what it needs to do to accomplish your desired outcome. For carving the inside ski needs enough weight on it to decamber the ski and keep it carving, but that might just be the weight of your leg.

The PMTS web site is pretty much the place for fully committed PMTS acolytes. I once dared suggest to someone asking for advice on what ski to buy that indeed a short radius ski like the head SL (11 m radius - or maybe it was a short radius Supershape) was best for learning, but since he expressed a desire to and enjoyment of skiing fast he might to consider a compromise and get something with a bit longer radius, like 15 m. I was reprimanded; the PMTS forum is for PMTS skiers to ask and get PMTS advice only. While I wasn't excommunicated, I new it wasn't my church and I didn't belong there. I haven't been there since.

 

[mdf]

f you are already tipping both skis properly and are one of those folk who do exactly as you are told, you will find yourself tripping over your inside ski's little toe edge as you stretch all your ligaments and joints to ONLY tip the inside ski for example.

That's why you needed to be told to ignore the outside ski and let it auto-magically do the right thing.

The reason emphasis on tipping the inside ski works is that most folk are far better at tippng the outside ski; they need to develop their ability to tip that inside ski -muscles that do that are also weaker.

I think something else is going on. First, almost no one can do two things simultaneously, especially if they are a new skier. So one ski is going to go first. So consider if you tip the outside ski first -- you just land on the inside ski. Instant A-frame outrigger. Tip the inside ski first, you start to topple to the inside (unless you really resist it). As you topple, the other leg will get pulled into a proper tipped orientation. Automagically!

 

[karlo]

If you can name it you show some true understanding.

 

[karlo]

If he said guide and ride you would think he was mumbling

The inside is the gee-der...

 

[Josh Matta]

give her a chance.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

I hate wedges and your right. By teaching a wedge you then have to teach later what to do with that inside knee. You have to unlearn how to wedge. .

Not if you teach it properly. From a gliding wedge, you should introduce direction change through REDUCING the edging of what becomes the inside ski.