Orienting Upper Body to the Outside of the Turn

[DavidSkis]

Yes, my biggest issue was that my foot would slip down in the boot and pronate the ankle. Can't stay on your LTE like that.

What do you mean when you say that your foot would slip down in the boot?

 

[Fuller]

Weak ankles? 11lb buckets and 10lb feet? I am planning on moving to a low volume boot but I wouldn't say the existing ones were that bad. But yeah, there's enough room in the cuff and foot area itself for the inside of my foot to move down hill. Not too many other circumstances on the hill that compares to doing that particular drill.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@Fuller, when you say your foot slipped, did it slip sideways inside the boot, either towards the little toe edge of your foot, or towards the big toe edge (meaning the boot's too wide for your foot)? OR do you mean your ankle collapsed and the inside of your foot dropped, aka your foot pronated and your knee rotated in and the ski flattened?

Also, do you have custom footbeds inside that boot?

 

[DavidSkis]

If there is room for your foot to slip inside of the boot, it means your boot is at least a size too big (probably 3) and it's time for a new, snug boot

If a bootfitter put you in a boot that your foot can slide around in, you deserve a refund

 

[markojp]

Weak ankles? 11lb buckets and 10lb feet? I am planning on moving to a low volume boot but I wouldn't say the existing ones were that bad. But yeah, there's enough room in the cuff and foot area itself for the inside of my foot to move down hill. Not too many other circumstances on the hill that compares to doing that particular drill.

Sounds like yer boot has too much volume. Once you're in the right boot, you'll be shocked by the change in circumstance in most applications... You've probably become very adept at compensation.

 

[Corgski]

Yes, my biggest issue was that my foot would slip down in the boot and pronate the ankle. Can't stay on your LTE like that.

That drill exposed calf volume issues for me which hopefully has been addressed by getting Eliminator Tongue Shims. They certainly helped my overall skiing, still need to retry the drill to see what they do there.

 

[Fuller]

@Fuller, when you say your foot slipped, did it slip sideways inside the boot, either towards the little toe edge of your foot, or towards the big toe edge (meaning the boot's too wide for your foot)? OR do you mean your ankle collapsed and the inside of your foot dropped, aka your foot pronated and your knee rotated in and the ski flattened?

Also, do you have custom footbeds inside that boot?

I haven't done that drill yet this year (powder day tomorrow so it may be a while!) but I remember that when I was riding on that LTE the medial part of my foot was unsupported as well as the ankle rolling in when I could no longer keep it where I wanted. It took way too much effort to hold it in place which made the balance part of the drill that much harder.

Yes I do have custom footbeds and I believe the boot is the right length (about 15mm behind my heel in a shell fit). I won't go into how I got there but I totally agree that I need to make some changes. I'm in a medium volume boot and it needs to be a low volume one. I look forward to the shocking improvements @markojp

 

[oldschoolskier]

Pretty well all of the replies are giving the same answer in different forms. All explain the how and when.

The short answer is....it is the best body position to correctly edge and balance. Yes there is more to it, however in simple terms this is it.

Understand this simplistic concept and all the previous posts will make sense.

 

[PTskier]

Some of what Armstrong says makes perfect sense, and some makes no sense at all. "Open the hips." What a convoluted way to say, "stand taller." Just stand taller and hinge forward at the ankles. That actually gets the body's center of mass forward over the skis' sweet spots.

Stand on the balls of the feet. Stand on the knuckle of the big toe for the outside foot. All good.

Javelin turns on the steep hill and have the shoulders align with the ski on the snow. What in the world does that each anyone? A drill without a purpose.

Switch the weight (not pressure) from the old outside foot to the old inside foot (new outside foot), then turn while orienting the body to the outside of the turn. Perfect sense. (Pressure is weight per unit area. Not the force or weight we put on the ski.) Note that she isn't steering (pivoting) the skis, she's putting the ski on edge and letting it turn her.

Beaulieu has his typical word salad. Nothing he says makes any sense. What is the benefit of Javelin turns? He never says. If he ever defined separation, I missed it. He never states what (upper & lower body) separation is good for. What does "really strong alignment" mean? No guessing, what does Beaulieu say it means? My 2¢ worth is Beaulieu's existence is a waste of good oxygen.

 

[Jamt]

I'm in a medium volume boot and it needs to be a low volume one. I look forward to the shocking improvements @markojp

Believe it! I second what @markojp says. I've seen it many times. Just last weekend I influenced a person to buy new boots, and he was totally ecstatic and thanked me like a hundred times. He improved a few levels on one day with the new boots. I have also experienced the reverse a couple of times when I forgot to bring my boots to the hill and had sloppy rental boots instead. It is a nightmare.

 

[markojp]

Beaulieu has his typical word salad. Nothing he says makes any sense. What is the benefit of Javelin turns? He never says. If he ever defined separation, I missed it. He never states what (upper & lower body) separation is good for. What does "really strong alignment" mean? No guessing, what does Beaulieu say it means? My 2¢ worth is Beaulieu's existence is a waste of good oxygen.

Jesus H dude.., who pee'd in your Wheaties? PT, I have to be honest. I've never heard you say anything positive about anything other than Harold Harb on any topic you've ever replied to on this site. It gets really really old especially since I'm pretty sure you could easily add positive energy and direction to most conversations here. Look, if you don't get something that someone who skis at JF's level is doing or saying, just turn off the sound, watch it, and try. Its a short video. Is it really necessary that it be encyclopedic in scope? What you missed completely is that he is doing a tip to tip Javelin. It's very hard to cheat. It does what he says it does. It also depends on boots that fit, and some basic athleticism, so it isn't a drill that will work for everyone. Every association talks about the importance of separation, maintaining functional alignment through and from arc to arc, and guess what? He's also directing pressure accurately to the outside ski. It's a variant of one ski skiing which I'd think you might agree has many benefits. So PT, let's put on our SL skis, meet at the top of Daisy at Stevens, and do this drill on flat terrain. You'll get it. Leave the angry Eeyore schtick at home and I'll buy you a beer afterward.

 

[Suzski]

Getting back to the Armstrong video, here's what I'm seeing:

At 9:30 to 9:40 her upper body is oriented almost uphill on the traverse and it never moves as the skis come around in the turn. Because of that, her angulation is already set up to happen as the turn happens. As the uphill/inside ski becomes the downhill/outside ski with the roll from the small toe "button" to the large toe "button", the angulation has to happen to achieve stability on the new outside ski.

When I look at the video in super slo-mo, at 9:38 she’s still going across the hill, but has initiated the turn by rolling onto the big toe joint on the uphill ski. She is angulated uphill, her hips have moved over the outside ski and are pointing slightly uphill. Her shoulders are pointed even more uphill. She then carries this orientation through the turn with her upper body pointed, basically, in the opposite direction of the turn until the skis come around. At that point, (9:39) the upper body is just where it should be - at a 45 degree angle (guessing) downhill from where the tips of her skis are pointing, i.e., where the inside ski would be pointing if she were doing the javelin drill.

I don't know if she is exaggerating the uphill orientation of hips and shoulders to make a point, but I'm going to play around with it tomorrow night.

 

[PTskier]

Mark, JF skis beautifully. That's not why his videos are posted. What does he say that helps a skier understand how to make his skis better engage in the snow? What does JF say that helps an instructor be a more effective teacher, to better explain and demonstrate a concept to that student? A progression of movements the instructor can have their student do to improve? Ballou does that. Armstrong, sometimes. Beaulieu, never that I've seen.

I've been wrong before (ask my wife). Mark, how does this JF video help your skiing? He's training instructors. How would this video tell an instructor what (and how) to present to his clients, and what here would make the clients better skiers?

 

[markojp]

My answer is simple. Put it through the paces with an open mind, then think how you, as an assumed native english speaker, would describe it more succinctly. Personally, I'm a very visual learner. I've gotten a ton from CSIA video. We also need to remember we're not on the hill with his group and not privy to all of the context. I get what he's saying. I find that without proper direction and feedback, the 'long leg, short leg thing is often problematic as it isn't always combined with commensurate separation... I'd rather buy a haircut in the barbershop than on the internet.

 

[DavidSkis]

What does he say that helps a skier understand how to make his skis better engage in the snow? What does JF say that helps an instructor be a more effective teacher, to better explain and demonstrate a concept to that student? A progression of movements the instructor can have their student do to improve? Ballou does that. Armstrong, sometimes. Beaulieu, never that I've seen.

I've been wrong before (ask my wife). Mark, how does this JF video help your skiing? He's training instructors. How would this video tell an instructor what (and how) to present to his clients, and what here would make the clients better skiers?

I'm having a hard time understanding how you didn't see that the progression video was a progression, and I'm not sure why you wouldn't be able to use this progression if there was a separation issue - OR a balance issue - OR an issue with turning the lower joints, etc.

But more importantly, I think you're expecting something JF hadn't signed up for. JF was clear that he was working with his level 3 candidates to create separation. You wanted him to do something different. To me, it feels like you're eating at a friend's who serves beef tenderloin, then complaining that it was terrible clam chowder.

The other video you posted is a snippet from a training session. It's entirely out of context. It's just as out of context as Deb Armstrong's video. Some of the stuff she was doing looks completely strange to me, but that's because we don't know the context. Yet I'm sure that if I were on snow with her, she'd improve my skiing.

For what it's worth, JF has improved my skiing tremendously in the past few years. He literally coached me into some of my best advanced parallel and short radius turns this afternoon. I've seen him coach never-ever skiers up to the level 3 ski standard within two seasons. He has helped to build the CSIA manual (which is stronger than any other sport coaching manual I've seen) and he's truly creating innovation in the Canadian ski space. JF's videos are great at conveying some concepts in skiing. However, a video can't ensure you skiing better; a video can't detect the things holding you back from expert skiing or provide solutions. What JF's offered in his free and paid videos may not match what you need at this moment in your skiing. And not everyone clicks with every coach. But I'm sure if you were here in person, with an open mind, and a willingness to learn, you'd get the change that you need to take your skiing to the next level.

 

[HardDaysNight]

I hadn’t seen Beaulieu’s video before but I’m pleased I did. One of the most potent tools an instructor has is his ability to implant a vivid image in his student’s mind. The idea of the skis moving under then beyond the body still on the old edges, out to the new side as far as possible is hard to convey but, possibly, the gateway to expert skiing. I tell athletes to try to make the skis climb the hill behind them. “Climbing the bowl” resonated with me, leaving aside a little Gallic over exuberance, and I’ll use it.

As an aside, Harald Harb, whose teaching I admire and whom I know well, talks about exactly the same thing when he advises to release the ski at the optimal pressure point and allow momentum to carry the skis and legs under the body and out to the new side.