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Open Parallel/ Dynamic Parallel

Erik Timmerman

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OK JOsh, I'm just wondering what you are looking to achieve here. It seems liek you are looking to define this into a narrow little box. BUt as you know, skiing has a million variations and you can't put it all into a box. There is this continuum between "I Can't Ski" and "I am Marcel Hirscher" along the way there is Wedge --> Wedge Christie --> Open Parallel --> Dynamic Parallel. Do we need an exact definition? Can there be Dynamic Wedge Christie? By your measure, most of the D Team would fit in that category, right? My guess is this has something to do with helping Diane prep for L2? Just look at the videos and be like Justice Marshall - "I know it when I see it". If she fails that task, it won't be because she is too dynamic.
 
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Josh Matta

Josh Matta

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This has nothing to do with Diane actually....shes already banked that part of it.

This has everything to do with showing how silly definitions are when no one knows what they are including the ed staff. Yes there could be dynamic wedge christies in fact I would go so far to say that all most all wedge Christies are dynamic at some point in the turn.

The entire point is maybe we should start focusing on movement then worrying of someone if going to fast or has edge to much assuming they are still demoing clean arc to arc turns. I am lamponing the terms and showing that even their own videos do not really draw a line between the 2. sure Dynamic is faster, again at what point is it fast enough it is dynamic?
 

Uke

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The term 'Open Parallel' was first used with the Center Line idea back in the late 80s. Wonder if the distinction had to do with the pre-shape skis they were on. Its much easier to produce dynamic turns on today's skis.

uke
 

Skistaff

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Give it a rest, please. (Tricia feel free to delete this post)
If you have nothing to say and you just post for the sake of posting , may be just take a short break or go back to tgr , it can be both refreshing and positive experience.
 

James

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There used to be "Diverging Parallel". A step up from Dynamic.
Open is short for "Open Stance Parallel".
Natural stance may be rider than more advanced, both skis bear weight. Open allows for indepedent leg steering.

As opposed to a closed or locked stance.

There's more commitment to the outside ski in Dynamic vs Open. Near 100%. Besides what's been talked about Bob lists early deliberate weight transfer.

Tricia makes Bob's diagram.
(Appears to be a typo in the text. Should be fig 3 and 10 not 8)
image.jpg

image.jpg
 
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dustyfog

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Just in good humor for the kids who read and it's not about skiing really - Epic's comment furthers discussion no doubt and this discussion is really for instructors of course - but one detail causing minor offered correction for the sake of posterity, and credit given accurately where credit is due, to be appreciated with appropriate humor: The bolded bit "...and be like Justice Marshall - "I know it when I see it" " That was actually Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart , to wit : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it

OK JOsh, I'm just wondering what you are looking to achieve here. It seems liek you are looking to define this into a narrow little box. BUt as you know, skiing has a million variations and you can't put it all into a box. There is this continuum between "I Can't Ski" and "I am Marcel Hirscher" along the way there is Wedge --> Wedge Christie --> Open Parallel --> Dynamic Parallel. Do we need an exact definition? Can there be Dynamic Wedge Christie? By your measure, most of the D Team would fit in that category, right? My guess is this has something to do with helping Diane prep for L2? Just look at the videos and be like Justice Marshall - "I know it when I see it". If she fails that task, it won't be because she is too dynamic.
 

TPJ

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I like Joshs' definition of the skier would topple over if external forces were removed. I got this one from the snowboard side of my training.... The SB staff looks at how much the center of mass and base of support move towards and away from each other. This is both up and down and laterally. In skiing I would also be looking at long leg short leg differences. In an open parallel turn, the legs stay fairly close to the same length and the distance between the CM an BOS doesn't change a whole lot. You also don't see the CM move very far inside the turn.
 

JSDOS

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Always thought "open insert turn type or move here anything" meant the skier was "open" to external forces.
And "dynamic blah blah" meant the skier was managing external forces.

... that's a moving target, by the way.

Or maybe, "external forces manage the skier", is better?
 

bud heishman

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Josh, here in the Western Division, my understanding has been parallel turns can fall anywhere along the pivoting <------> edging continuum. I feel the difference between a basic parallel turn and a dynamic parallel turn comes when the skill bias changes from a rotary bias to an edge/pressure bias where the skis direction is controlled more by bending the skis with greater forces created vs. controlled by a more rotary/skidded bias. These differences may be very apparent when the biases are greater (90/10 vs. 10/90) or very subtle based on how close to the 50/50 skill blend (60/40 vs. 40/60). I try to demo closer to 70/30 rotary/edging for a basic parallel and 30/70 rotary/edging for a dynamic demo. We can certainly go to extremes by doing pivot slips or very skidded turns at the basic parallel end or very tipped and bent rail road tracks at the dynamic end. Ultimately being able to show ownership of the whole spectrum is what is important and being able to make parallel edge changes at any speed or skill blend.

The Aussies have distinctive labels for each phase along this continuum of skill blends which ads clarity to exactly what skill blend they are looking for in parallel turns.
 
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Josh Matta

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Always thought "open insert turn type or move here anything" meant the skier was "open" to external forces.
And "dynamic blah blah" meant the skier was managing external forces.

... that's a moving target, by the way.

Or maybe, "external forces manage the skier", is better?


well there are always external forces acting on the skier(duh!!) but would dynamic mean the skier is creating more force though their movements?
 

Erik Timmerman

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Josh, here in the Western Division, my understanding has been parallel turns can fall anywhere along the pivoting <------> edging continuum. I feel the difference between a basic parallel turn and a dynamic parallel turn comes when the skill bias changes from a rotary bias to an edge/pressure bias where the skis direction is controlled more by bending the skis with greater forces created vs. controlled by a more rotary/skidded bias. These differences may be very apparent as the biases are greater (90/10 vs. 10/90) or very subtle based on how close to the 50/50 skill blend (60/40 vs. 40/60). I try to demo closer to 70/30 rotary/edging for a basic parallel and 30/70 rotary/edging for a dynamic demo. We can certainly go to extremes by doing pivot slips or very skidded turns at the basic parallel end or very tipped and bent rail road tracks at the dynamic end. Ultimately being able to show ownership of the whole spectrum is what is important and being able to make parallel edge changes at any speed or skill blend.

The Aussies have distinctive labels for each phase along this continuum of skill blends which ads clarity to exactly what skill blend they are looking for in parallel turns.

You are an examiner, right? Have you ever failed a candidates OP for being too Dynamic?
 

bud heishman

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You are an examiner, right? Have you ever failed a candidates OP for being too Dynamic?

Yes! many times we see past racers who have difficulty managing edge angles to demonstrate the ability to blend skills along the spectrum I eluded to above. If the candidate demonstrates throughout the tasks and demos they do not have the ability to change skill blends, then yes they will fail the exam. The OP is but one example throughout the exam which will shine light on this ability or lack thereof. They must be able demonstrate a rotary biased parallel turn as well as a more edge/pressure biased parallel turn.
 

Erik Timmerman

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Yes! many times we see past racers who have difficulty managing edge angles to demonstrate the ability to blend skills along the spectrum I eluded to above. If the candidate demonstrates throughout the tasks and demos they do not have the ability to change skill blends, then yes they will fail the exam. The OP is but one example throughout the exam which will shine light on this ability or lack thereof. They must be able demonstrate a rotary biased parallel turn as well as a more edge/pressure biased parallel turn.

Can you tell us how you draw that line? Or is it just "I know it when I see it"?
 
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Josh Matta

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Yeah knowing it when you see it IMO is a cop out. There has to be an exact point that it is no longer open parallel.
 
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Josh Matta

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because if people are going to an Exam they should know what pass at what fails.

If an examiner knows it when they see it, and can not define a clear point when open becomes dynamic maybe it time to scrap the terms entirely.
 

JSDOS

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well there are always external forces acting on the skier(duh!!) but would dynamic mean the skier is creating more force though their movements?

Yeah, not necessarily just more.

A better skier will manage or manipulate available forces in opposition, in balance, or in sync (more, as you say) to the general forces in skiing. The general or external forces created by just standing on a platform and sliding down a hill force the new skier to react to them. A newer skier is generally subject to the forces, is primarily and consciously concerned about them and only manages them through abrupt, or inefficient, or exaggerated movements - or some combination thereof.

The dynamic skier uses dynamic movements or adjustments. These are active, even pro-active, anticipatory. Often very subtle. Sometimes invisible. For truly advanced skiers, they are usually on automatic. The "open" skier is basically at the mercy of Newtonian forces. A "dynamic" skier plays with them. Uses them to advantage.

Unfortunately, the source of most athletic motion is invisible. For me, skiing takes place maybe 80% inside the boot. While 80% of observation is on the body.
 
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JSDOS

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OTOH, if you are trying to pass an exam or something like that, maybe it would be better to concentrate on the athletic movement or lack thereof rather than a specific demarcation of open v dynamic. Especially since that border is not a dotted line on a map but rather the blurry line of opinion?

Dynamic parallel skiers are fluid and manage forces gracefully and simultaneously. Open parallel skiers are stiff and focused on one move or position at a time.

What does an open parallel skier look like? How do they move? On what are they focused? How can I act (Method School of Ski Instruction!) and look like an open parallel skier? Watch some video and copy open parallel skiers. Maybe the practice the appropriate drills with very stiff, tense feet while standing more from the arch to the heel. Don't blend skills.
 

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